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Dorian makes my baby cry

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Kurisu, Jul 31, 2004.

  1. Kurisu


    Nov 19, 2003
    Saskatoon SK
    So, I'm practicing here and my baby girl starts making a scrunchy face and starts complaining when I practice my dorian scales. She doesn't complain when I'm working on Ionian though. Neat eh?

    I do have a question here: How do you folks find it easiest to memorize your modes? By note, or by pattern? Just it's that I've got some differing opinions on this. Some say patterns is fine, as long as it's interval patterns. Others say you should always know the notes. But man, would it ever be tough for me to memorize all the notes of every possible scale.

    It would be easier if I knew the interval patterns, and if someone asks me, "Hey, dude, what notes are in a C# phrigian?" I'd be all, "Well, lemme think, okay they are..." and what I'd really be doing is working out the pattern on the fingerboard in my head. Is this cheating?

    I just feel bad about this, because I used to play sax... And that is not a pattern instrument. :)
  2. Wrong Robot

    Wrong Robot Guest

    Apr 8, 2002
    This is my preferred way to learn, teach and explain modes. I have never had any problems remember what mode was what after I learned this method(which only took a couple minutes of thinking)

    I've heard this method called the LIMDAPL method

    *COPY*(from other thread about modes)

    *PASTE* :D

    So you know the names Ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian But you're having problems remembering which one is which. Check this out.

    We start with the brightest sounding mode, which is Lydian.
    This is because lydian is exactly the same as ionian except, the 4th degree is raised a halfstep. We will be lowering one note from each scale
    Till we get to the darkest sounding mode, Locrian

    so Lydian looks like this
    e.g. C lydian: C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-c

    Now, we can lower one note to get to ionian

    e.g. C ionian: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-c

    Now, there is only one note we need to change to get to mixolydian, that's the 7th.

    e.g C mixolydian: C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb-c

    From here, again, only one note needs to change to get to Dorian, the third.

    e.g. C Dorian: C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb-c

    Now, we lower one note to get to Aeolian, the 6th.

    e.g. C aeolian: C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-c

    Now, lower one note to get to Phrygian, the 2nd.

    e.g. C phrygian: C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-c

    Finally, the last note we lower to get to Locrian is the 5th


    e.g. C locrian: C-Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-c

    I know this might be confusing, but give it some thinking, and it should really help, if not, sorry for wasting your time :p
  3. spc


    Apr 10, 2004
    South of Boston
    Don't know if this will help, but here goes:

    The order of the modes is ionian
    So the example you gave C# phrygian you ask yourself "What is C# the third of "? (phrygian is the third mode)
    So you have C# is the third of A so:
    C# D E F# G# A B C#

    As far as how you do things in your head, That's your business. If you say play in the key of three flats and I know you mean Eb, no matter how I got the info from my brain (straight memorization, or a sentence for all the flat keys, I'm still on the same page playing in the key)
  4. Kurisu


    Nov 19, 2003
    Saskatoon SK
    Gah! I knew it had been posted somewhere before. :)
    I should have put, "or is the limpadl method the one used by most people?"

    For example, you're walking over some chord changes, do you have time to look at the chord symbol, figure its context, then use limpadl to calculate the mode you're going to use?
    I would have thought that just knowing the pattern for the mode would be enough. But that seems like it's cheating, or at least seems less "honest" to me...?

    Sorry if that doesn't make sense. I'm still trying to figure all this stuff out. (maybe I'll never stop trying, :) )
  5. SPC, that's a cool way of looking at them. I never really thought to look at modes that way. I mean I did, but never in a concrete way. It was just a matter of looking at the Ionian one and distancing myself accordingly. Saying that it's the "third of..." is a great idea!
  6. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
    When you're walking changes, the vast majority of the time you should be thinking chord tones, not modes.
  7. Hey, it's was the same with me when I was a kid. Once when I was like 3 years old, I my mom(who is a classical musician) brought me to a house on an island, where her orchestra were going to rehears a weekend.

    EVERY SINGLE TIME they played something in a minor key, I sort of :bawl:
  8. Aaron Saunders

    Aaron Saunders

    Apr 27, 2002
    If someone would ask me that question, I'd find C#, go to the third, and then call out the notes as I worked the phryigian pattern in my head. F-Gb-Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F. By the actual notes in the scale, it's better to think in flats, and thus, it should be Db, 'cause it just gets gross in sharps.
  9. Fuzzbass

    Fuzzbass P5 with overdrive Gold Supporting Member

    FWIW, I know modes by their patterns. A good musician should know notes and patterns, but I've never claimed to be a good musician. :p
  10. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
    And you would be wrong.

    (score another for not learning modes as they relate to "parent" scales) C# Phrygian would be C# D E F# G# A B C#.

    C# is the 3rd of A, which has 3 sharps.
  11. Whafrodamus


    Oct 29, 2003
    Andover, MA
    I have a great musical memory. I really never forget a peice of music that I learned, including scales. I just practiced them for a few minutes and I have them down, including names.. As far as recognition go, I have a good enough ear to recognize a certain mode when I hear it.
  12. Aaron Saunders

    Aaron Saunders

    Apr 27, 2002
    See, now that's how I did it originally, and thought "Naahh." The way I learned mode's relations was that the name of the mode, in this case phryigian, would indicate that it's the third mode of the note named's ionian mode. Good to know the correct way!
  13. just a question about the literal meaning of "mixolydian";

    -up till now I remembered it as the fifth mode as I thought "mixo" meant 5 - mainly because of a Fast Show Channel 9 sketch involving corrupted european languages in which the prefix "mixo" was taken to mean 5,

    however, doing a search now it appears that mixolydian means a combination of Lydian and dorian, ie. a mix.

    is there any language (Esperanto, perhaps?) in which mixo does mean 5?
  14. pontz


    Oct 31, 2003
    My son, now 3.5, has always gone to pieces when he hears certain music, be it classical or blues he's a sucker for a sad song.

  15. cowsgomoo

    cowsgomoo gone to Longstanton Spice Museum

    Feb 8, 2003
    and also, what does 'Chris Waddle' mean in that language? :)
  16. travatron4000


    Dec 27, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    well i didn't feel like reading the whole thread so if repeating someone... oh well. but you really only need to know the 12 major keys and how the modes relate. so if you know that D dorian is in the same as C major play in that key but used D at tonic. or if you wanna play in C mixolydian that's the key of F so Bb's. that's what works for me. and if you use them enough you'll learn them they way you've probabally learned all the major and minor keys. yes, the only way to really learn something is my repetition. short cuts are only things to repeat untill you learn what you want.

  17. CJK84


    Jan 22, 2004
    Maria Stein, OH
    I have a simple way to remember and play the modes of the major scale of any key.

    I relate the modes to the parent key in the following way.

    Ionian 1-2-3-4-5-6-7

    Dorian 2-3-4-5-6-7-1

    Phrygian 3-4-5-6-7-1-2

    Lydian 4-5-6-7-1-2-3

    ... and so on.

    As such, when playing a mode in ascending fashion, you're simply playing the related major scale, but starting on a scale tone other than 1 (unless you're playing the Ionian mode).

    Of course, you must know the intervals between succeeding major scale tones, but that's pretty basic.

    I guess I differ from Pacman here in that I think if you relate all of the modes to the parent scale it's easier - there's less to remember.

    And I can usually quickly convert a scale tone (or "mode tone") to its note value when needed.

    I relate almost everything back to the tonic key and its related scale and that works well for me.
  18. Howard K

    Howard K

    Feb 14, 2002
    I learnt modes 'in key' but limdapl method makes more sense of them.

    now I tend to see lydian & ionian as the same and just use the #4 when I want, the same with the minors, although dorian gets use more often than the others. Aeolian when I want a very minor sound. the only two i see independantly are lochrian and mixolydian - because of the tritone in the derived chord
  19. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
    So I guess when you're playing modes, you start everything from the root? What if you want to play in Lydian, and start on the 3rd? or the 7th? Now your thought process is slowed down to the point that the chord is gone before you can play over it. Getting the point?

    And it's easier to really muck it up.
  20. The problem, though, is that that can create a fundamental misunderstanding of what's going on harmonically. In many modal situations, there just isn't any supposed "tonic key" to refer back to--the modality *is* the tonality. Take everybody's favorite modal example, "So What." The harmony is D dorian, Eb dorian, D dorian. But by the approach tyou're suggesting, this tune would be thought of as starting in C, then going to Db, then back to C. However, that doesn't make sense in terms of how the tune actually works. By no stretch of the imagination can the tune be said to be in C--D dorian is the tonality. I would resectfully suggest that rather than trying to tell yourself that you somehow have to relate what you're doing to C, it's actually easier, as well as more correct, just to relate to D dorian as a tonality in and of itself. To take a pragmatic view, aside from the "rightness" of it all, it's a one-step process rather than a two-step process. Just MHO.