Double Bass Double bass making and becoming my best self

[_Kooky_]

Hello all,

I am new here. I have been learning hand tool Japanese woodworking, but not being Japanese is quite the hindrance regardless of its allure. I have been a lifelong musician, mostly focused on electronic instruments the past few years, synths, groove boxes, etc. and it smacked me in the face I should focus my woodworking on learning something Native: making jazz instruments! I was in jazz band long ago, there are a number of things here I could make, flamenco guitars, hollow body electric, double basses...

With that said, there's almost as much information about these things online as there is Japanese woodworking, albeit Japanese woodworking has that Instagram aesthetic nailed down so there might be even more for us English speakers...

I have reviewed threads on here already, but my main question is: how can I truthfully become my best version of a luthier? Do I need to travel across the world to find an apprenticeship that isn't some $10,000 cost for a month? I'm looking for long term if that's what's needed. If I shouldn't bother, can I honestly be my best by being self-taught?

Information is no longer localized in communities with its nuances spread person to person, it's widespread in a sort of hollowed out version strewn across the internet. As vast as the ocean, deep as a puddle. I feel like I could learn more from a few hours in person than days on end strenuously reading about something. It's just how I am. The speed in which information is conveyed and corrected is so much faster in person it feels like the most streamlined way.

I read on here that there's a lot of positives that occur when you try to teach yourself something from limited information, I can't come to any conclusion.

So I am looking for input on how I can proceed to stop wasting time, while also ensuring I don't waste my time by doing something inefficiently.

Cheers

 

[stefaniw80401]

Same situation for players. We can burn copious amounts of time onYouTube, and reading about playing whatever styles or techniques. And/or we can study with a master. But there's no substitute for putting in the time for practice.

So, yes, you should pursue an all of thee above strategy in your journey. Since you are attracted to Japanese tools and approaches,, apply that mentality of perfect simplicity and minimalism to your ocean of research.

Good luck!

 

[_Kooky_]

Same situation for players. We can burn copious amounts of time onYouTube, and reading about playing whatever styles or techniques. And/or we can study with a master. But there's no substitute for putting in the time for practice.

So, yes, you should pursue an all of thee above strategy in your journey. Since you are attracted to Japanese tools and approaches,, apply that mentality of perfect simplicity and minimalism to your ocean of research.

Good luck!

Thanks, I guess I shouldn’t isolate them and take things as they come. I just don’t want to waste time, you know? If I could be doing something efficiently, I really want to.

But, not doing anything while I try to find a master is far worse than buying “So you want to make a Double Bass?” with plans, I would imagine…

 

[fu22ba55]

Given the unforgiving margin of error in woodworking, (oh crap! I ruined this carved top!), I imagine there's no substitue for standing next to a master who can lay hands on your work and say "do it this way, not that way."

I think wood is too precious / valuable to waste it on trial and error (but I'm a bit emo that way). Wisdom is about applying the right knowledge AT THE RIGHT MOMENT. You can read something crucial to your technique, but forget about it two years later when you need to apply it.

All the best luthiers I know had some form of apprenticeship, and it shows. I'd wager you don't have to travel 10,000 miles from your current location to find a violin maker, or an archtop guitar maker. (Unless you live on a moon of Jupiter).

 

[_Kooky_]

Given the unforgiving margin of error in woodworking, (oh crap! I ruined this carved top!), I imagine there's no substitue for standing next to a master who can lay hands on your work and say "do it this way, not that way."

I think wood is too precious / valuable to waste it on trial and error (but I'm a bit emo that way). Wisdom is about applying the right knowledge AT THE RIGHT MOMENT. You can read something crucial to your technique, but forget about it two years later when you need to apply it.

All the best luthiers I know had some form of apprenticeship, and it shows. I'd wager you don't have to travel 10,000 miles from your current location to find a violin maker, or an archtop guitar maker. (Unless you live on a moon of Jupiter).

I’ve obviously become enamored with watching builds online the past week and 100% of the time I’ve said at some point “it’d be a real b#%$& to mess up after this many hours”.

Sorry about posting this here. This is where the "older" bass building threads were but I now see a "Luthier's Corner".

 

[Ed Fuqua]

The guy who built my A bass, Jed Kriegel, started out as a wooden boat builder. And apprenticed under master boat builders. When he wanted to build instruments, he apprenticed under a couple of different master luthiers, Arnold Snitzer and Nick Lloyd.

If you have that kind of mental approach, you can learn a lot from just taking stuff apart and putting it back together. But just like playing an instrument, reading a book or watching a youtube video only presents the information one way, every time. It doesn't try to figure out if there's another way to communicate the information or answer any questions that might pop up or even put their hand on top of yours to show you how running that plane over wood should feel. Jake Shimabukuro has a great quote " Music is just a mechanism for finding out what kind of person you are." Had a great discussion with Jed before he started building my bass and as it came up in the conversation, that's pretty much true for ANY endeavor a person tries to get deeper into.

But look, in addition to apprenticeships, there are instrument building workshops that are far less than $10,000, so poke around for some of those..

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Just cause I ain't doing poopie right now...
VSA/Oberlin Bass Workshop

Lutherie Schools USA – Guild of American Luthiers

Basses at the UNH Violin Craftsmanship Institute

 

[_Kooky_]

Strangely enough, since I live in Florida I have inevitably looked into boat building. There's a "school" in Maine with tuition over $10,000 easily, for two years, not to mention relocating and paying to live and commute in Maine for two years.

My point still stands I think, I'm really kind of anti-commute, I prefer a community, building locally, things are so spread out now it makes it difficult to uproot and start over. I am not well off either, so it's not much of an option. While I haven't convinced myself of the following, I do lean towards a week's workshop being "nearly" worthless. Yes, I might come out being able to build a guitar, but I still know the barebones with no real guidance, I might have even picked up bad habits that will continue on forever, even with the harsh eye of a master, 7 days is an onslaught of information. Japanese students would learn to sharpen for an entire year or more before even striking wood, and long, long ago they would smith their own tools to perfectly suit their needs.

This is what is lacking today... I guess, the Village People! Being able to walk down the street to a smith, walk a few doors over to wood supply. If this was still the arrangement I can't imagine everyone and their mother would suddenly want to become a luthier. The industrialized race to the bottom, is that not almost always the problem for the craftsman?

I would imagine a boat builder can learn to build wooden string instruments very rapidly.

One major concern I have is not being able to afford power tools. I really, really don't like buying Chinese goods, all of my hand tools are made by artisans, but even Chinese band saws, decent ones, run upwards of $2,000. No offense to the Chinese, I learned their language in high school, it's mostly the overseas technological colonialization that causes issues. I do however like supporting the individual and my country.

I recently watched a Studio Ghibli movie called Whisper of the Heart and one of the characters is a violin maker. No power tools in sight. Maybe if I'm inspired enough I could pull things, very tediously, off, without power tools.

I forgot to mention one other terrible disadvantage, pretty bad anxiety. I don't think I'd be able to perform well in the hustle and bustle of a busy workshop...

 

[oldNewbie]

... like for instance the VSA/Oberlin workshop 6/26-7/1/2022. from the Catgut Acoustical Society
VSA/Oberlin Bass Workshop
With people including Robbie McIntosh, Trevor Davis, Jay VandeKopple, Joey Nager, Arnold Schnitzer, David Gage, Bill Lakeberg, Jim Ham . Pity the ISB convention is still online only this year, the build-a-bass event would have been a great resource for you too.

[edit] Events like the above show the generous community of double bass luthiers, who share their knowledge and experience very freely with each other, and newcomers as well.

 

[_Kooky_]

... like for instance the VSA/Oberlin workshop 6/26-7/1/2022. from the Catgut Acoustical Society
VSA/Oberlin Bass Workshop
With people including Robbie McIntosh, Trevor Davis, Jay VandeKopple, Joey Nager, Arnold Schnitzer, David Gage, Bill Lakeberg, Jim Ham . Pity the ISB convention is still online only this year, the build-a-bass event would have been a great resource for you too.

[edit] and "like" workshops or not, events like the above show the generous community of double bass luthiers, who share their knowledge and experience very freely.

Yea, that seems like the one you'd wanna go to.

[edit] Events like the above show the generous community of double bass luthiers, who share their knowledge and experience very freely with each other, and newcomers as well.

I am not whatsoever criticizing the information, nor the individuals at play, I am more criticizing the essence of modern society that forces these sort of quick, "cheap thrill" type of classes as opposed to say, a lifestyle luthier. It comes quick and it goes quick. While I do appreciate the knowledge it says it is $1,300 (very reasonable compared to a lot of luthier intensives) so I wouldn't go as far as saying "freely", but I get your point, which is that this information could easily be kept private.

This bass community seems far more vibrant and enthusiastic than a lot of the sort of clinical/sanitized focus I've found in other areas while researching online. Unfortunately I'm barely a bass player , I just love it!

 

[Ed Fuqua]

@james condino

 

[Jazzdogg]

Hello all,

I am new here. I have been learning hand tool Japanese woodworking, but not being Japanese is quite the hindrance regardless of its allure. I have been a lifelong musician, mostly focused on electronic instruments the past few years, synths, groove boxes, etc. and it smacked me in the face I should focus my woodworking on learning something Native: making jazz instruments! I was in jazz band long ago, there are a number of things here I could make, flamenco guitars, hollow body electric, double basses...

With that said, there's almost as much information about these things online as there is Japanese woodworking, albeit Japanese woodworking has that Instagram aesthetic nailed down so there might be even more for us English speakers...

I have reviewed threads on here already, but my main question is: how can I truthfully become my best version of a luthier? Do I need to travel across the world to find an apprenticeship that isn't some $10,000 cost for a month? I'm looking for long term if that's what's needed. If I shouldn't bother, can I honestly be my best by being self-taught?

Information is no longer localized in communities with its nuances spread person to person, it's widespread in a sort of hollowed out version strewn across the internet. As vast as the ocean, deep as a puddle. I feel like I could learn more from a few hours in person than days on end strenuously reading about something. It's just how I am. The speed in which information is conveyed and corrected is so much faster in person it feels like the most streamlined way.

I read on here that there's a lot of positives that occur when you try to teach yourself something from limited information, I can't come to any conclusion.

So I am looking for input on how I can proceed to stop wasting time, while also ensuring I don't waste my time by doing something inefficiently.

Cheers

Where are you located?

I am a retired woodworking teacher (a California college) and was also a member of a few local woodworking clubs. Learning opportunities abound if you are willing to seek them out. Sometimes the best opportunities are informal via word of mouth. If you have a local luthier whose knowledge and work you respect, they may be able to steer you in a helpful direction.

Good luck!

 

[_Kooky_]

Currently it looks like I'll be buying "So you want to make a Double Bass", plans, and Courtnall's "Making Master Guitars" because I read it focuses on the European tradition of hand tools, which is all I have!

I appreciate everyone's input so far and whatever input is yet to come! I believe I am going to focus on finishing some more tobacco pipes while the books arrive to better understand curvature and how beauty arises from it, as well as its impact on function. Not much to do with bass making but they're similarly elegant.

 

[_Kooky_]

Where are you located?

I am a retired woodworking teacher (a California college) and was also a member of a few local woodworking clubs. Learning opportunities abound if you are willing to seek them out. Sometimes the best opportunities are informal via word of mouth. If you have a local luthier whose knowledge and work you respect, they may be able to steer you in a helpful direction.

Good luck!

Located in no-name South Florida, no makers for miles, not a single one anywhere near me. A couple luthier repair and setup shops about 30 minutes away. I have no real qualms with taking up violin, cello, or any string instrument making really. While there are surely tons of differences, there has to be just as many similarities to other string instruments.

The general hand eye coordination and understanding of progression and forms. I will ask my local woodworking club, if we even have one.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Located in no-name South Florida, no makers for miles, not a single one anywhere near me. A couple luthier repair and setup shops about 30 minutes away. I have no real qualms with taking up violin, cello, or any string instrument making really. While there are surely tons of differences, there has to be just as many similarities to other string instruments.

The general hand eye coordination and understanding of progression and forms. I will ask my local woodworking club, if we even have one.

I had lots of students who lacked the self discipline to see the requisite steps to mastery; they saw our requirement that they start by making a ukulele an insult because they wanted to built something more complicated right now! The same is true for virtually all aspects of advanced woodworking, including Japanese hand tools: self-mastery comes before acquired skills like musicianship or woodworking. I had the opportunity to work with several Japanese woodworkers through Kezouro Kai, and many of them taught by doing - questions were not encouraged because developing patience and attentiveness were prerequisites to learning the actual woodworking skills.

 

[oldNewbie]

This bass community seems far more vibrant and enthusiastic than a lot of the sort of clinical/sanitized focus I've found in other areas while researching online. Unfortunately I'm barely a bass player , I just love it!

I'm not familiar with the other luthier groups but still believe the bass luthier community is a group apart. The Catgut workshop is I believe an ongoing conversation of many decades, and you would be welcomed. It's not just a class it's a community.

Watching the 2019 build-a-bass at Indiana , almost a week of frenetic activity and a great big party . Bits and pieces - necks, tables , ribs being made , some instruments assembled. Twentysomethings, thirysomethings up to seventysomethings with hammers,chisels , a big pile of very nice woods and a remarkable sense of community and pleasure. The frantic scramble to finish one for the lucky music school (UNT? Rice ?) student who needed one, and got to go home with it , and others ending up in the hands of Lorraine Campet and Ron Carter (and who else? ) on the concert stage the next couple nights.

 

[_Kooky_]

I'm not familiar with the other luthier groups but still believe the bass luthier community is a group apart. The Catgut workshop is I believe an ongoing conversation of many decades, and you would be welcomed. It's not just a class it's a community.

Watching the 2019 build-a-bass at Indiana , almost a week of frenetic activity and a great big party . Bits and pieces - necks, tables , ribs being made , some instruments assembled. Twentysomethings, thirysomethings up to seventysomethings with hammers,chisels , a big pile of very nice woods and a remarkable sense of community and pleasure. The frantic scramble to finish one for the lucky music school (UNT? Rice ?) student who needed one, and got to go home with it , and others ending up in the hands of Lorraine Campet and Ron Carter (and who else? ) on the concert stage the next couple nights.

Yes, from the workshop pictures I'd imagine this is where I'd find bass makers back in the day, top of a mountain, dangled precariously next to a very active volcano.

 

[BassFalcon]

The best way to get started….is to get started. Stop philosophizing about your ideal luthiery village, get a stack of wood, and get on with it. You could spend a year sharpening your tools if you want to, or you could build 3-4 instruments in that year, your choice. I don’t mean to be rude or harsh, but if becoming a luthier is what you want then do it. It would be cheapest to start with violins as the wood requirements are far smaller, and what you learn with those translates to the whole violin family more or less. You don’t even need good wood, just wood. Just start. Carve a top for it, keep tinkering until you ruin it, then carve another until you figure out how it works. There are phenomenal luthiers in Central America that only use a knife. Whatever tools you have will be fine. Life is short and time is wasting, you could spend years looking for your perfect apprenticeship. Just get on with it. By all means keep seeking learning opportunities, join the guild of American luthiers, meet people where you buy wood, stop buy a cabinet makers shape and introduce yourself, ask some questions. People love to talk about themselves, find people into wood and instruments and get them to talk. Just don’t keep putting it off waiting for the right teacher or apprenticeship or school or whatever, or dreaming up your ideal world. You live in this one, make it what you want, because if you keep seeking what you want, you’ll never find it and will have wasted your precious time here.

 

[james condino]

I love that photo of the guys resawing by hand! When I live in Nepal, I watched a small group of local folks fell a giant tree, saw it up exactly like that, and proceed to build an entire mid sized lodge in that same manner. Once the boards were cut, they forged a plane iron over a woodfire from an old rusty shovel blade, shaped it, and did all of the cabinetry. The whole building was built with about $50 in materials and 50 generations of improvisation and attention to detail.

As someone who grew up working in old boat shops restoring vintage Chris Crafts and sailboats, lived in Japan for years, has been building instruments for over 40 years and who has taught over 2000 students during that time, the number one advice I could give you is simple: GET THE $#@& OUTTA' SOUTH FLORIDA!!!!!!!!!!

Feel free to call the shop if you wanna' chat it up about instruments and instrument building.

 

[_Kooky_]

The best way to get started….is to get started. Stop philosophizing about your ideal luthiery village, get a stack of wood, and get on with it. You could spend a year sharpening your tools if you want to, or you could build 3-4 instruments in that year, your choice. I don’t mean to be rude or harsh, but if becoming a luthier is what you want then do it. It would be cheapest to start with violins as the wood requirements are far smaller, and what you learn with those translates to the whole violin family more or less. You don’t even need good wood, just wood. Just start. Carve a top for it, keep tinkering until you ruin it, then carve another until you figure out how it works. There are phenomenal luthiers in Central America that only use a knife. Whatever tools you have will be fine. Life is short and time is wasting, you could spend years looking for your perfect apprenticeship. Just get on with it. By all means keep seeking learning opportunities, join the guild of American luthiers, meet people where you buy wood, stop buy a cabinet makers shape and introduce yourself, ask some questions. People love to talk about themselves, find people into wood and instruments and get them to talk. Just don’t keep putting it off waiting for the right teacher or apprenticeship or school or whatever, or dreaming up your ideal world. You live in this one, make it what you want, because if you keep seeking what you want, you’ll never find it and will have wasted your precious time here.

I understand everything you are saying and I will do my best. I was just providing an example of culturally different rigors. I mean, it's not really an uncommon philosophy, Japanese or not.

Supposedly Abe Lincoln said something along the lines of “If I only had an hour to chop down a tree, I would spend the first 45 minutes sharpening my axe.”

If I could buy every tool I felt I needed or was recommended, buy tons of wood to practice on, this and that, I would. But I really can't afford it right now. It's going to be a pain to buy some materials and screw them up, be it at the beginning or end. My woodworking was nearly put to a halt in general when prices skyrocketed 5x the cost, $10 projects now cost $50 or even $60 to complete. I am still a novice so I mess up, on expensive hardwood, which is mostly what I use, it's somewhat demoralizing. Thing's that'd cost $5 for my garden from 1x2 furring strips now cost $25. Just not a great time, but you can't stop the passion! I do my best to not by trash, buy once cry once. You spend more over time by not investing in higher quality gear up front, so my wallet is always hurting.

I ordered my plans from Roy Courtnall for a flamenco by Santos Hernandez, they will be picked up tomorrow as blueprints from Office Depot. I am going to have to start with a guitar no matter how much I'd like to make basses at some point, it just seems like a different beast. I did get some Bessey clamps in the mail, a router plane and spokeshave, plus a new whetstone, Veritas honing guide so I don't have to waste time, and a clamp for whetstones, but those were ordered a while ago before I really committed to this, they still might help. Besides guitars I also really like the aesthetic of fresh, undried wood and "rustic" projects, like chairs that use literal branches, spoon and bowl carving, etc.

I guess I have to buy a bunch of cam clamps now D: