Double bass simulator

[Feral Feline]

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I don't understand why people think upright basses have no sustain...
...there is a hell of a lot more sustain than most people seem to think.
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+ 1 !

 

[Honch]

It's all pizzicato if you aren't using a bow.

I don't understand why people think upright basses have no sustain. There's a very different attack/decay envelope, but there's plenty of sustain while playing upright.
I went to a clinic with an old school jazz upright player once. He asked people how long they thought an audible note lasted on upright. People said one, two seconds. He had a guy get out a stopwatch, played one note, let it ring...15 seconds. Now half that time might not have been at a musically useful volume, but there is a hell of a lot more sustain than most people seem to think.

The closest sound to an upright I've ever gotten on electric is right hand at the end of the neck and a bit of short reverb. The rest is all technique.

Well, you make the false assumption that it is the same for open strings as well as fretting high up on the neck. It isn't. The sustain is in abundance of lower frets, and open strings, but becomes considerably shorter way up the neck. The initial attack is like a drum percussive thud, though, but then the volume decreases. The note is still there but fades very quickly. Although you can watch these GHS strings videos, they all uses muting foam to shorten the attack. This is necessarily not all there is to this, since there's a lot of "wooden reverb" out of the box that should and MUST be present as well. In equal amounts. But when miked up live, I think wooden resonances will get in the way and induce feedback. If any system should be involved in this - like the reverse-sustainer system - it must track properly and not kill sustain at all, at the lower notes, it can even be made to add sustain to make the notes bloom or go "bwwwarrrrrrr...." like it does when you really lean in on the upright.

I e the difference between the actual plucking attack and the decaying sustaining notes are of large difference. It's not as gradual as on any electric. And since the Kalua, Ashbory, and other basses don't have sustain, and mimicks the short pop decay note of an upright, I don't know what should hinder this on an electric of 34" scale, making the decay shorter on a regular 34" electric bass. I got the idea when trying out the Moog guitar at a fair. I thought "what's the purpose of defeating sustain...this guitar was made to do infinite sustain..." but then I went "Eureka!!!". I've asked Paul Vo about it on a regular support email, but haven't got a reply yet (it was years ago). I think the hardest thing would be to add "wood" around it. Another thing, which is maybe overkill, is that you have to have high definition neo-pickups or some magnetics pickup that picks up...treble.. believe it or not. Regardless that you have to use flatwound, there is a lot of treble content in the initial attack, the first 10 milliseconds or something.

Still I want to hear and see that Zoom R24 effect on YT or even soundcloud.

 

[Jon Moody]

Somebody could do what comes up in the comments, and repeat some of the samples on a fretless. There are times in the p-bass vid where the guy gets impressively close.

Yeah, I have yet to find some time to do Round Three on my fretless (Pedulla Pentabuzz w/PJ setup). Or, I may borrow a friends mid-70s fretless P for it.

And thanks for the words. It should be noted that I've played double bass classically since I was 11, and jazz since I was 17, so I like to think that when it comes to emulating a DB, I've got a good idea of what those characteristic nuances are, what ones are ideal and what ones you just can't replicate. Because a pedal to do it, as mentioned, is really only a small part of the equation. It's a completely different technique and approach that needs to be understood as well.

True, you'll never completely nail the double bass sound on an electric. That hasn't stopped me from palm muting (and running a bit of delay/reverb as well), or using a U-Bass on occasion when I'm in a theatre pit that needs me to double on electric and upright, and I don't have the real estate to do it. And fun fact: the general audience won't care, or know the difference.

 

[Big Band Hand]

I'm in a theatre pit that needs me to double on electric and upright, and I don't have the real estate to do it. And fun fact: the general audience won't care, or know the difference.


Truth in the last sentence... why o why pontificate on exact tone... one post I remember from some time ago stated "The only people that care about your bass tone is you and your dog." That may not be entirely true but close enough for Jazz, as the saying goes.

 

[Rib 13]

best double bass simulator is to palm mute and have a hofner full hollowbody bass,

i do something similar....first, i solo the mid pickup (all my basses have bridge/mid PUs). I keep it in single coil mode if available but hums can work. I also dial back highs to taste (dial back tone on a passive bass).

The technique I use is side-of-thumb graceful pluck in conjunction with palm mute - the feel is very similar to a finesse pinch harmonic - and played between the mid PU and neck. EDIT: I just saw a few of the videos - I guess my technique alleviates the need for a foam at the bridge


I also push somewhere between 2K and 6K a bit on the EQ but it will vary from bass to bass. Slightly sliding into notes for fretting hand....Occasionally, I add slight chorus and a fast slap back delay

By itself, it doesnt sound like an upright, but within a mix/rest-of-band-playing its a decent facsimile

Now, I only exclusively use roundwounds (except on fretless)....I imagine this would even be better with flatwounds or tapewounds but Ive never tried them

 

[RoadRanger]

I've a gig tonight with an acoustic band that was advertising for an upright player and I offered to play fretted uke-bass with them. I do have an upright but can't really play it and there's just no way I'm gonna be carting it around for gas money - especially in the winter. Sound is plenty close enough for me .

 

[Jon Moody]

I've a gig tonight with an acoustic band that was advertising for an upright player and I offered to play fretted uke-bass with them. I do have an upright but can't really play it and there's just no way I'm gonna be carting it around for gas money - especially in the winter. Sound is plenty close enough for me .

There is a difference between "Sound is close enough for me" and "Sound is close enough for the people that hired me," and that usually doesn't involve your willingness to cart around a large instrument.

There are gigs that I have to bring both, because the people that pay me request it, and that's what I get hired for.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm in a theatre pit that needs me to double on electric and upright, and I don't have the real estate to do it. And fun fact: the general audience won't care, or know the difference.

Truth in the last sentence... why o why pontificate on exact tone... one post I remember from some time ago stated "The only people that care about your bass tone is you and your dog." That may not be entirely true but close enough for Jazz, as the saying goes.

Why even bother showing up if that's your attitude? If you're so unimportant to the proceedings that nobody cares what you do, why are you there?

 

[Jon Moody]

Why even bother showing up if that's your attitude? If you're so unimportant to the proceedings that nobody cares what you do, why are you there?

If you're referring to the first part of that comment (which was my original post, prior to it being taken out of context), I should state that I always clear what I bring with whoever hires me; they're paying me, and are the boss. Most of the directors really don't care, so if it's a tight pit I'll use the electric only. If they would really prefer both, I'll bring my electric-upright (saves space, and actually, a lot of people in town REALLY LIKE IT). Only ONE director in town is very specific in wanting a real upright, so those times I get gigs from her, I borrow a friends' Kay Swingmaster. But again, the general population won't care about any of that. If the bass playing is bad, they'll notice something.

 

[JimmyM]

If you're referring to the first part of that comment (which was my original post, prior to it being taken out of context), I should state that I always clear what I bring with whoever hires me; they're paying me, and are the boss. Most of the directors really don't care, so if it's a tight pit I'll use the electric only. If they would really prefer both, I'll bring my electric-upright (saves space, and actually, a lot of people in town REALLY LIKE IT). Only ONE director in town is very specific in wanting a real upright, so those times I get gigs from her, I borrow a friends' Kay Swingmaster. But again, the general population won't care about any of that. If the bass playing is bad, they'll notice something.

Jon, to me, "The audience doesn't know or care" is equivalent to "Nagara Falls" when speaking to Moe of the Three Stooges

 

[Jon Moody]

Jon, to me, "The audience doesn't know or care" is equivalent to "Nagara Falls" when speaking to Moe of the Three Stooges

Jimmy, that phrase at no point alleviates the player from performing to the best of their abilities, or lessens the role of the bassist in a group setting.

 

[JimmyM]

Jimmy, that phrase at no point alleviates the player from performing to the best of their abilities, or lessens the role of the bassist in a group setting.

I get that it wasn't your intention to imply that it does those things. You're an industry pro and you didn't get there by being a jerk off But I've had too many people throughout my career use that phrase to let me know that any thoughts about caring what I sound like were unimportant and only slowing everyone down. Meanwhile these same people were doing stuff like bringing 3 or 4 guitars and insisting on soundchecking each one in depth, or spending an hour setting their vocal monitor, etc, and all I wanted to do is balance my dirty sounds with my clean sound or something equally simple that would take an extra minute or two. And that phrase is what they always say..."The audience doesn't know or care."

Slowly I turn...

Sure, it's based on gross insecurity, but bass players tend to come by it honestly

 

[freshbass]

FWIW, In "How the Fender Bass Changed the World", Jim Roberts claims that the early "Fender basses" (now known as P-basses) sounded like very loud double basses, and that actually this is the exact sound Leo Fender originally aimed at.

Yes. and to do that the bridge cover had a foam mute installed underneath that pressed down on the strings at the bridge, and the bass came w/ flat-wound strings.