Double Bass Double bass string history

[martinc]

I don't think Spirocores were around in the 1950's or early 60's. Other metal strings were, but not these.

- Steve

Steve: To my knowledge Spiro's came out in the late 50's...but it took a few years for many bass players to make the change. There is a reference to that in the Ken Smith link I posted earlier. Also a suggestion from Uncle Toad on TB about Ray Brown changing from guts to Spirocores in the late 50's or so. Wikipedia has a reference to that: " The late Jeff Sarli, a blues upright bassist, said that, "Starting in the 1950s, they began to reset the necks on basses for steel strings."
Roger Stowers History of Kay basses also refers to the late 50's to steel strings generally: "Kay bass tops and backs held to 1/4" thickness (5-ply), however, as steel strings became popular, in the late 1950's, the possibility of table tension increased."
How about this one in doublebassguide:"The Lycon steel strings became most popular as the first steel strings in the late 50s. early 60s."......Paul Warburton. This helps for sure.

However....Thomastik has a long history of making steel double bass strings: From the company's website: "after many years of joint effort steel strings had been successfully manufactured. In 1926 strings of respectable quality were developed for all string instruments, from the violin to the contrabass. Post war production ( for export to US) resumed in 1950.

As an aside, I sent an inquiry to Thomastik re when the Spirocores were first sold in the US. I'll post their reply.

 

[Paul Warburton]

Short of an eyewitness to the session, I think we're all just giving our opinions... My opinion is that his sound is more focused on the Pat Moran tracks than on the later Bill Evans things where we do know it was gut.

I will say, according to the interwebs, "This Is Pat Moran" was recorded in 1957, LaFaro played in Chet Baker's band in 1957, and Paul Warburton told me he saw LaFaro playing w/ Chet Baker and that LaFaro was playing a set of Lycons then. (He also told me LaFaro played a mixed set of nylon wrapped gut on top, Lycons on bottom when PW saw him playing with Stan Kenton, which may have been when he toured w/ Kenton in 1959).

So, I think it's open to interpretation. Given the difficulty of distinguishing between gut and Lycons on some recordings from that era, and the circumstantial and anecdotal evidence of LaFaro's string use at various times, I guess Lycons on the Pat Moran record. Those who guess gut, can you point to recordings of LaFaro playing Lycons to compare and distinguish?

I replaced Scotty in the Pat Moran trio and later she got me my little month in the Bill Evans trio with Philly Joe Jones. This was 1965 and most of us were using Lycons, which were actually popularized by my mentor, Red Mitchell.
Before the advent of Lycons, we were using Artone guts on top and various brands of steels on the bottom. A bassist friend of mine once described Lycons as sounding like a piano string because of the ping attack point and the long sustain. I would agree with that, and sometimes on the open A and E strings, the sustain would actually blossom and get louder, so you had to control that. As mentioned above, I met Scotty backstage at a Kenton concert. He didn't even put the bass (the carved Mittenwald with the suction cup on the end-pin spike, which you can clearly see laying on his bed in the pic in Helene's book). down long enough to shake hands, but just kept playing this crazy **** while we talked
He was using nylon on top and nylon wrapped steels on the bottom. When I heard him with Chet a couple of years later, he was using all Lycons, but switched to guts on top and Lycons on the bottom.
Before all that happened, the Go-To strings in jazz were Artone, bare guts on top and steel wrapped guts on the bottom.
To this day, IMO, Lycons were the greatest jazz bass strings ever. Because we were ampless, they gave us the best chance to be heard in those days. I miss Lycons.
Sorry about the long rant.

 

[martinc]

Great stories and information Paul...thanks!

 

[SAlcott]

Why are you sure, have you heard recordings of him playing Lycons that you can compare the two sounds?

I can only go by what I hear on the posted example, combined with my own experience with gut and Lycon strings.

 

[labravajazz]

Just fwiw here is a NOS Lycon Ray Brown D string

 

[Stuart.C]

That looks just like a picture from the Ray Brown bass book and I thought those looked like gut?
What's the closest thing to Lycon these days? The mythical string everyone wants but no one has.

 

[Sam Dingle]

I think its spirocores.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Just fwiw here is a NOS Lycon Ray Brown D string View attachment 741803View attachment 741804

What does the string look like? What's it measure, gauge-wise?

 

[labravajazz]

I just got these have 2 of them - too afraid to open them !
I'll open one and take a photo - I don't have any thing to measure the gauge though, suppose I could go buy one....
Anyway stand by for photo, by memory they have green silks rather than the blue regular ones and I think the g and d were lighter than the blue but that's just a vague memory as I did once have an old one someone gave me many years back.

 

[labravajazz]

That looks just like a picture from the Ray Brown bass book and I thought those looked like gut?
What's the closest thing to Lycon these days? The mythical string everyone wants but no one has.

Yes you are right I didn't even notice that. This was his old bass bought in Scotland I think , which he said never worked well with metal strings and he only went with all metal strings when he got the Sylvestre French bass which did work with metal presumably Lycons. Subsequently he had his endorsement and his own slightly different Lycon set.
I just lucked onto 2 D strings never opened
I have a full set of regular Lycons but have never seen a whole Ray Brown set. I do have a few odd regular strings as well, never used but not in packets. Very hard to find......

 

[Paul Warburton]

Rather than quoting several posts here, in order to save time, there seems to be some confusion. The big Italian looking bass with the hollow machine turners in the Ray Brown Lycon package was gifted to him by his wife, Ella Fitzgerald, soon after they were married. It wasn't bought in Scotland, but there was an interview with Ray where he was questioned about the origin of the bass and he responded, that among other appraisals for the bass, one expert called it Scottish. Most experts, in the end, suggest that it's more than likely English with an Italian pattern, although nobody has ever figured out the origin of the machines because they seem to be one of a kind. I played it in a coat room in a club in Denver while Ray was talking to some fans on a break when he was with Oscar. It was strung with the original Lycons, obviously before his Lycon endorsement set came out.
To answer the question about the original Lycons verses the Ray set, in terms of feel, Ray's were lighter and felt similar to today's steel solo strings, but the originals sounded more like Spiro Starks but felt more like Regular Spiros.
I hope this helps answer some questions.

 

[martinc]

Re: my Nov 13th post above on the availability of Spirocores in North America.....I received a reply today from Thomastik-Infeld in Vienna.
I was advised that "They were first sold between 1950 and 1960."

That supports the statements made by some of the folks I quoted earlier.
Now all we have to do is figure out from old recordings, who was using them in the late 50's .

 

[Jake deVilliers]

I just got these have 2 of them - too afraid to open them !
I'll open one and take a photo - I don't have any thing to measure the gauge though, suppose I could go buy one....
Anyway stand by for photo, by memory they have green silks rather than the blue regular ones and I think the g and d were lighter than the blue but that's just a vague memory as I did once have an old one someone gave me many years back.

If you can post a clear photo of the Ray Brown Lycon with a Spirocore, we can make a very accurate guess as to the gauge.

Would you be interested in trading one of your Lycon 'D' strings for a Lycon 'G'?

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

What's the closest thing to Lycon these days? The mythical string everyone wants but no one has.

I read somewhere on this forum that [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] strings are supposed to be a reproduction of the fabled Lycon strings.

- Steve

 

[labravajazz]

Photos of D strings Lycon Ray Brown, regular and Spiro FYI

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Photos of D strings Lycon Ray Brown, regular and Spiro FYIView attachment 742587View attachment 742588View attachment 742588View attachment 742587

Yummy!

Those two Lycon 'D' strings look to be almost exactly the same size. What's your better informed opinion on that?

 

[Matt Ides]

Reviving this thread. I just picked up an old Czech bass and had a pile of strings in the back pocket. Do all the Lycons come with green or blue silks?

 

[Sam Dingle]

Reviving this thread. I just picked up an old Czech bass and had a pile of strings in the back pocket. Do all the Lycons come with green or blue silks?

Post some photos of the strings. Maybe we can identify them. Any golden spirals/red o rays?

 

[Matt Ides]

I'll get them organized and photos done this weekend.

 

[labravajazz]

Reviving this thread. I just picked up an old Czech bass and had a pile of strings in the back pocket. Do all the Lycons come with green or blue silks?

Yes they are blue regular gauge and green Ray Brown set as seen in my photo just aabove where I showed one of each
If anyone’s interested I have a nos Ray Brown D listed for sale. Pretty rare especially new in original packet...