Hi everyone! Been playing upright for about a year and a half and thinking of picking up electric bass too. For those who also started with upright, how long did you wait before adding on electric? And which one do you prefer now? I’m worried about starting too early and dividing my time because I’m still a pretty novice DB player. Also curious if I wanted to get into jazz in general, do you think it’s necessary to have a teacher? I took lessons for a year but it was pretty basic stuff and mostly classical. Really wanting to play jazz but not sure how to even start.
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Double Bass Double bass vs. electric
- Thread starter hp_playsbass
- Start date
I went the other way (picked up double bass after electric bass). The reason is that my gigging situation suggested that double bass would be useful. So, my biased answer is that you should start on bass guitar when you NEED to.
In regards to a teacher: Restart your lessons. All of the technical skills you need for jazz (except perhaps the different approach to pizz) is contained in "classical" pedagogy. The rest is your ears, your imagination, and exposure to the genre.
In regards to a teacher: Restart your lessons. All of the technical skills you need for jazz (except perhaps the different approach to pizz) is contained in "classical" pedagogy. The rest is your ears, your imagination, and exposure to the genre.
I started on double bass, and then within a month or so I picked up a fretless uBass... Not because I prefer uBass, but because I realized there would be situations where I just couldn't bring the double bass.
As it's worked out, I've used the uBass once or twice early on in that first year, but almost always emphatically prefer to use the double bass, so I make the necessary arrangements to bring it. The uBass sits quietly at home, waiting.
As it's worked out, I've used the uBass once or twice early on in that first year, but almost always emphatically prefer to use the double bass, so I make the necessary arrangements to bring it. The uBass sits quietly at home, waiting.
What I think you will find if you start playing bass guitar after getting comfortable playing the DB is that most of what you already know is easily transferrable to bass guitar.
I also started electric and about 4 years later (this is 1996 lol) picked up DB. My reasons were basically down to the tones Charlie Haden was getting which for the life of me did not seem achievable on electric. (Incredibly, they still don't lol)
I prefer each in their own ideal context. I prob love the raw SOUND of a double bass more, but I'm not playing a punk rock on it (usually). I love the portability and complete lack of feedback voodoo required on electric, and sometimes sure, I love that 1mm action lol. The best part of playing both though is having the ability to really dictate the feel of a song through the decision of which to play.
To me, it's necessary to have a quality DB teacher and USEFUL to have a quality electric teacher. One thing that's great about having a good electric teacher is that by virtue of the instrument's physical proportions and the physics of playing it, more of the fingerboard is available to you sooner on electric. So having a good electric teacher who helps you apply theory over all that territory ends up helping your DB playing as you develop the tools to really make use of more of the instrument.
I prefer each in their own ideal context. I prob love the raw SOUND of a double bass more, but I'm not playing a punk rock on it (usually). I love the portability and complete lack of feedback voodoo required on electric, and sometimes sure, I love that 1mm action lol. The best part of playing both though is having the ability to really dictate the feel of a song through the decision of which to play.
To me, it's necessary to have a quality DB teacher and USEFUL to have a quality electric teacher. One thing that's great about having a good electric teacher is that by virtue of the instrument's physical proportions and the physics of playing it, more of the fingerboard is available to you sooner on electric. So having a good electric teacher who helps you apply theory over all that territory ends up helping your DB playing as you develop the tools to really make use of more of the instrument.
If you can play upright, you should be able to play fretted bass guitar. That doesn't mean everything you do on upright is optimal for bass guitar, only that in general it will work with minor adjustments.
As you develop, your technique on each instrument will likely diverge considerably. I originally used Simandl fingering on bass guitar. However a few years into being a pro, it started becoming increasingly apparent that I would benefit from using one finger per fret (OFPF) on bass guitar. I also transitioned from 4-string bass guitar to 5-string and then 6-string. So know I use totally different fingering system on bass guitar and upright.
I never could get comfortable on fretless bass guitar. I think part of the reason is because I use OFPF. My hand is not big enough to use OFPF on a fretless and I refuse to give it up. My solution was to get an electric upright. I felt immediately at home on the electric upright.
I never had any problems switching between fretted bass guitar and one of the uprights. I do find switching between upright and electric upright challenging in some situations. When functioning as part of a rhythm section, where I am loud enough to hear clearly, I can adjust intonation on the fly. When playing in a classical style as part of a bass section, you don't necessarily hear well enough use to your ear. Instead you have to really fine tune the calibration of your hand so that you can pretty much nail it. So the solution for me when I needed to play classical was to put away the electric upright and practice Simandl so my intonation would settle.
I can't say if I would have the same problem switching between fretless bass guitar and upright. My electric upright had approximately the same scale as an upright (~42") Bass guitar is usually around 34-35." Maybe that's enough of difference...I can't say.
I started on upright in 8th grade orchestra. Actually I crossed from viola. I played in a local youth symphony and also participated in annual All City and All Region orchestras. As a Freshman in high school I also played in big band. I played upright acoustically and there was a bass guitarist who used an amp at the same time. This allowed me to learn quite a bit, but you really couldn't hear me.
Junior year I dropped out of the school music programs. Then meant I was not eligible for the Youth City or All City or All Region. However, I was asked to play in a local university's big band. I borrowed a really crappy short scale bass guitar. The bass lines were written out for some of the music, but a large percentage of the music only gave chord symbols, which means you are expected to improvise a bass line. I did not know theory yet, so this was not viable. The big band director gave me sheet music and recordings for all of the songs. So basically I did record lifts of the bass parts.
I wound up majoring in music in college. The school had discontinued its commercial music program the semester before I started; so I was in a classical track. The music theory courses I took basically harmonized major and minor keys and focused on the rules of voice leading. Harmonization is basically generating the diatonic 7th chords that belong to a key. Learning the keys, key signatures, and diatonic 7th chords cold is really the foundation of improvising a bass line over chord symbols. So the theory classes gave me everything I needed to start figuring out how to improvise over chord notation. I bought one of the old black-market Real Books and one of the schools guitar instructors mentored me once or twice a week.
I have taken quite a few lessons on upright. I have never taken a lesson on bass guitar. You need a certain level of technique to play jazz. But it is far more important to have a foundation in music theory and develop a vocabulary that you can apply over chord changes. Basically you learn to play the instrument, then you learn theory, then you learn to apply the theory in real time on the instrument. Listening to and copying great players is a very useful activity to help build your vocabulary.
This is getting TLDR. I could probably keep writing and getting more detailed. But hopefully this is enough to give you an idea on how to proceed. There is nothing wrong with taking lessons on upright or bass guitar, but IME lessons usually focus on pedagogy/technique. In order to play jazz, you need a different type of instruction. You could major in music or take lessons that are focused on giving you the necessary foundation in music theory.
The music for high school level big band generally will have a written out bass line. College level and pro level big bands may have a few pieces with written out bass lines, but you really need to be able to read chord symbols and create your own bass line in real time.
Jazz combo is a bit different. Ideally to play in jazz combos you will have a bunch of head charts memorized so you don't need any sheet music to guide you. I am not an authentic jazzer, so while I do know a few songs, it's nowhere near enough to play in a good jazz combo. I do very well with Real Books gigs were I can use my crutch
.
As you develop, your technique on each instrument will likely diverge considerably. I originally used Simandl fingering on bass guitar. However a few years into being a pro, it started becoming increasingly apparent that I would benefit from using one finger per fret (OFPF) on bass guitar. I also transitioned from 4-string bass guitar to 5-string and then 6-string. So know I use totally different fingering system on bass guitar and upright.
I never could get comfortable on fretless bass guitar. I think part of the reason is because I use OFPF. My hand is not big enough to use OFPF on a fretless and I refuse to give it up. My solution was to get an electric upright. I felt immediately at home on the electric upright.
I never had any problems switching between fretted bass guitar and one of the uprights. I do find switching between upright and electric upright challenging in some situations. When functioning as part of a rhythm section, where I am loud enough to hear clearly, I can adjust intonation on the fly. When playing in a classical style as part of a bass section, you don't necessarily hear well enough use to your ear. Instead you have to really fine tune the calibration of your hand so that you can pretty much nail it. So the solution for me when I needed to play classical was to put away the electric upright and practice Simandl so my intonation would settle.
I can't say if I would have the same problem switching between fretless bass guitar and upright. My electric upright had approximately the same scale as an upright (~42") Bass guitar is usually around 34-35." Maybe that's enough of difference...I can't say.
I started on upright in 8th grade orchestra. Actually I crossed from viola. I played in a local youth symphony and also participated in annual All City and All Region orchestras. As a Freshman in high school I also played in big band. I played upright acoustically and there was a bass guitarist who used an amp at the same time. This allowed me to learn quite a bit, but you really couldn't hear me.
Junior year I dropped out of the school music programs. Then meant I was not eligible for the Youth City or All City or All Region. However, I was asked to play in a local university's big band. I borrowed a really crappy short scale bass guitar. The bass lines were written out for some of the music, but a large percentage of the music only gave chord symbols, which means you are expected to improvise a bass line. I did not know theory yet, so this was not viable. The big band director gave me sheet music and recordings for all of the songs. So basically I did record lifts of the bass parts.
I wound up majoring in music in college. The school had discontinued its commercial music program the semester before I started; so I was in a classical track. The music theory courses I took basically harmonized major and minor keys and focused on the rules of voice leading. Harmonization is basically generating the diatonic 7th chords that belong to a key. Learning the keys, key signatures, and diatonic 7th chords cold is really the foundation of improvising a bass line over chord symbols. So the theory classes gave me everything I needed to start figuring out how to improvise over chord notation. I bought one of the old black-market Real Books and one of the schools guitar instructors mentored me once or twice a week.
I have taken quite a few lessons on upright. I have never taken a lesson on bass guitar. You need a certain level of technique to play jazz. But it is far more important to have a foundation in music theory and develop a vocabulary that you can apply over chord changes. Basically you learn to play the instrument, then you learn theory, then you learn to apply the theory in real time on the instrument. Listening to and copying great players is a very useful activity to help build your vocabulary.
This is getting TLDR. I could probably keep writing and getting more detailed. But hopefully this is enough to give you an idea on how to proceed. There is nothing wrong with taking lessons on upright or bass guitar, but IME lessons usually focus on pedagogy/technique. In order to play jazz, you need a different type of instruction. You could major in music or take lessons that are focused on giving you the necessary foundation in music theory.
The music for high school level big band generally will have a written out bass line. College level and pro level big bands may have a few pieces with written out bass lines, but you really need to be able to read chord symbols and create your own bass line in real time.
Jazz combo is a bit different. Ideally to play in jazz combos you will have a bunch of head charts memorized so you don't need any sheet music to guide you. I am not an authentic jazzer, so while I do know a few songs, it's nowhere near enough to play in a good jazz combo. I do very well with Real Books gigs were I can use my crutch
.
I'm not a pro but I've played about a bit so I'll give you my experience for your consideration. First, I was a pro guitarist in my teens and 20's and didn't pick up bass until my 40's - standard mid-life crisis motivation - I was bored and looking for a new challenge. I was curious about walking bass lines and rented a fretted bass for a few months and thought that went well, and then rented a fretless bass for a few months and thought that went well too, so then I rented a DB for a year before buyting my first DB.
When I first started on DB, I found that my intonation was terrible at the start of each day. After ten minutes, it started to dial in and my teacher commented that my intonation was unusually good; probably my musical instruction as a youth helped. But, it was a few years before I didn't have that bad-intonation adjustment period when I first picked up the DB for the day. The dial-in period got shorter and shorter but was still present for a few years.
And then, the dial-in period started to get very short near the nut, but was present in the portions of the neck that I was less familiar with, like in thumb position.. These days, it's kind of the opposite, there's rarely any startup period at all and I'm surprised when I'm off a few cents anywhere on the neck but that's several years practicing two and three octave scales and arpeggios.
After I started gigging, I bought a fretless BG, mostly for Latin jazz tunes or when I was worried about bringing my DB - sketchy neighborhood, outdoors in the summer or rain, etc, and my bandmates were happy with my playing and told me tha they liked the sound. I still prefer the FBG for Latin jazz tunes because it's the right tone and it's a bit more fluid than the DB, which is appropriate for the fast tempos in Latin jazz.
Then I watched a Victor Wooten video and realized that I wasn't playing the BG, I was kind of toying with it and hadn't made a serious commitment to utilize everything the instrument has to offer, not to mention that I was still having trouble with my competence on the DB, so I decided that it would be better not to dilute my studies on the DB and pick one or the other, so I sold my FBG and only play DB unless I'm at an occasion when I want to play and there's only a BG available. I can still get around okay on the BG, but I'm nowhere as fluent as the DB on it.
These days, my second instrument is the piano and I don't regret it.
When I first started on DB, I found that my intonation was terrible at the start of each day. After ten minutes, it started to dial in and my teacher commented that my intonation was unusually good; probably my musical instruction as a youth helped. But, it was a few years before I didn't have that bad-intonation adjustment period when I first picked up the DB for the day. The dial-in period got shorter and shorter but was still present for a few years.
And then, the dial-in period started to get very short near the nut, but was present in the portions of the neck that I was less familiar with, like in thumb position.. These days, it's kind of the opposite, there's rarely any startup period at all and I'm surprised when I'm off a few cents anywhere on the neck but that's several years practicing two and three octave scales and arpeggios.
After I started gigging, I bought a fretless BG, mostly for Latin jazz tunes or when I was worried about bringing my DB - sketchy neighborhood, outdoors in the summer or rain, etc, and my bandmates were happy with my playing and told me tha they liked the sound. I still prefer the FBG for Latin jazz tunes because it's the right tone and it's a bit more fluid than the DB, which is appropriate for the fast tempos in Latin jazz.
Then I watched a Victor Wooten video and realized that I wasn't playing the BG, I was kind of toying with it and hadn't made a serious commitment to utilize everything the instrument has to offer, not to mention that I was still having trouble with my competence on the DB, so I decided that it would be better not to dilute my studies on the DB and pick one or the other, so I sold my FBG and only play DB unless I'm at an occasion when I want to play and there's only a BG available. I can still get around okay on the BG, but I'm nowhere as fluent as the DB on it.
These days, my second instrument is the piano and I don't regret it.
Hi, long time bassist here,
I agree with what’s been posted. The basic classical technique will provide enough to get you to move around the fingerboard on both instruments.
Ed Friedland, Rufus Reid, and others have books on jazz bass lines, and the Jamey Aebersold books have further example/ practice books and recordings.
You can Google and also search on YouTube for what jazz tunes you should be familiar with for jam sessions. There are maybe 50 or so, standard, must know tunes to start. It’s easy to go on YouTube and listen to the original recordings. You can also get the Jamey Aebersold books that have the tunes, and/or the legal Real Books, either paper or pdf.
If you get hooked on jazz, you must commit time to listening to it with attention. Learning the melody and harmony is a start, with learning how to improvise as a longer term goal.
Understanding and hearing jazz harmony, either on piano or guitar is another important aspect.
Working with a teacher that is a professional in the things that I have
mentioned will speed up the process.
I tried to keep this concise, but this is a huge subject; a lot has been mentioned already on Talk Bass.
I agree with what’s been posted. The basic classical technique will provide enough to get you to move around the fingerboard on both instruments.
Ed Friedland, Rufus Reid, and others have books on jazz bass lines, and the Jamey Aebersold books have further example/ practice books and recordings.
You can Google and also search on YouTube for what jazz tunes you should be familiar with for jam sessions. There are maybe 50 or so, standard, must know tunes to start. It’s easy to go on YouTube and listen to the original recordings. You can also get the Jamey Aebersold books that have the tunes, and/or the legal Real Books, either paper or pdf.
If you get hooked on jazz, you must commit time to listening to it with attention. Learning the melody and harmony is a start, with learning how to improvise as a longer term goal.
Understanding and hearing jazz harmony, either on piano or guitar is another important aspect.
Working with a teacher that is a professional in the things that I have
mentioned will speed up the process.
I tried to keep this concise, but this is a huge subject; a lot has been mentioned already on Talk Bass.
As for how, I'd find someone to show you the basics, both left and right hand are quite different on electric bass. Unlike double bass, on electric bass you might find just a few lessons quite sufficient. Then, I'd buy Hal Leonard Bass Method and go page by page, playing with the playalongs. Then (or meanwhile on upright), I'd start with Building Walking Bass Lines.
As for when, I'd probably wait until you know the classical technique at least to the point of being able to play with good itonation and phycisal ease up to 3rd position. I know now that this would have worked for myself back then... but that doesn't mean it must work for you.
As for when, I'd probably wait until you know the classical technique at least to the point of being able to play with good itonation and phycisal ease up to 3rd position. I know now that this would have worked for myself back then... but that doesn't mean it must work for you.
I am originally an upright bass player. I started as an adult, after about 30 years on saxophone.
After a year or two, I was getting sufficient calls to play that some of the locations were REALLY difficult to load an upright - so I bought an inexpensive Precision Bass.
I still use the 1-2-4 Simandl fingering, and I almost always play in lower positions on EB. Since I'm using it as a substitute for upright, not in the styles like rock and roll where the EB is used to the full extent of its capabilities, simply using upright technique on the EB has been adequate for me till now.
The only (ongoing) challenge has been that there are no landmarks when you go up the neck other than those little dots. The neck heel isn't there. So when I get out of low positions, it's easy for me to get lost. Of course, PRACTICING would fix this problem, but I"m not practicing electric these days.
After a year or two, I was getting sufficient calls to play that some of the locations were REALLY difficult to load an upright - so I bought an inexpensive Precision Bass.
I still use the 1-2-4 Simandl fingering, and I almost always play in lower positions on EB. Since I'm using it as a substitute for upright, not in the styles like rock and roll where the EB is used to the full extent of its capabilities, simply using upright technique on the EB has been adequate for me till now.
The only (ongoing) challenge has been that there are no landmarks when you go up the neck other than those little dots. The neck heel isn't there. So when I get out of low positions, it's easy for me to get lost. Of course, PRACTICING would fix this problem, but I"m not practicing electric these days.
Hi !
I'm on the other side, I've been playing the double bass for more than a year, the bass guitar for twenty years and jazz for more than thirty years.
Jazz is a bit technical but not so much than classical. It is all about understanding and vocabulary.
It is just my opinion but if you want to play jazz, piano is the shorter way, I don't mean you have to be a pianist but playing the keyboard is the shorter way to connect the dots.
I don't think you will have problems to play the bass guitar in a jazz style. It's tricky if you want to play other styles, jazz requires a simple formal technique, the rest is all about feeling (time feel), understanding (harmony and form) and interaction (listening to the others).
I'm on the other side, I've been playing the double bass for more than a year, the bass guitar for twenty years and jazz for more than thirty years.
Jazz is a bit technical but not so much than classical. It is all about understanding and vocabulary.
It is just my opinion but if you want to play jazz, piano is the shorter way, I don't mean you have to be a pianist but playing the keyboard is the shorter way to connect the dots.
I don't think you will have problems to play the bass guitar in a jazz style. It's tricky if you want to play other styles, jazz requires a simple formal technique, the rest is all about feeling (time feel), understanding (harmony and form) and interaction (listening to the others).
Have you ever played any form of African-American improvised music? Rock, jazz, blues, R&B, soul? How about country, bluegrass?
If the answer's NO, then yes a teacher would undoubtedly be helpful. For a jazz bass player there are several subject matter areas:
- Chords, scales, functional harmony, all that stuff called "music theory"
- What the bass player does in the context of chord changes
- Making good sounding bass lines
- Keeping rock solid time and driving the band
- Supporting soloists
- Playing things that are stylistically appropriate
- and probably some more I'm not coming up with right now for a list.
Do you regularly listen to "jazz" - or maybe I should say more loosely, African-American improvised music? The role of the bass is very different than in orchestra.
I began on cello in junior high and played it through high school. Along the way I began playing double bass as well, and in about equal measure by the end of high school. I went to college on double bass, but by that point I had picked up an electric to play in cover bands. Through college I played mostly DB in school activities and all EB outside of school, including a lot of theater pit work.
Like others have said, the main artifact of having begun on DB is that I use Simandl fingering and anchor my thumb on the back of the neck. When I see guys wrap their thumbs around the neck like David Dyson, it drives me crazy even though I realize there’s nothing inherently wrong with it.
I play much more EB than DB these days and in fact do not own a DB other than an EUB. I still enjoy playing both though and there is one bandleader who calls me now and then for doubler gigs. It’s interesting to me how my brain interacts with the two instruments differently and I make different note choices based on the muscle memory I’ve developed on each.
Like others have said, the main artifact of having begun on DB is that I use Simandl fingering and anchor my thumb on the back of the neck. When I see guys wrap their thumbs around the neck like David Dyson, it drives me crazy even though I realize there’s nothing inherently wrong with it.
I play much more EB than DB these days and in fact do not own a DB other than an EUB. I still enjoy playing both though and there is one bandleader who calls me now and then for doubler gigs. It’s interesting to me how my brain interacts with the two instruments differently and I make different note choices based on the muscle memory I’ve developed on each.
Ross Kratter
Supporting Member
- Dec 31, 2010
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The best thing to remember is that they are different instruments and should be treated as such. When I was in high school and my first year of college, I preferred to use Simandl fingerings on electric bass, but later realized that they limited my dexterity on the instrument. In summer 2012, I switched to the one finger per fret style. That works much better for me; I have much better facility on electric now that I'm not trying to play it with double bass fingerings.
Try to find a teacher that plays both DB and Bass guitar, AND plays the type of music/gigs you want to do.
Approach players at gigs and ask them if they teach or can recommend someone good.
You want a teacher who nurtures you at the start and develop a love for music and that instrument.
Later on you need a teacher who can push you/ challenge you to step out and do new things.
Approach players at gigs and ask them if they teach or can recommend someone good.
You want a teacher who nurtures you at the start and develop a love for music and that instrument.
Later on you need a teacher who can push you/ challenge you to step out and do new things.
I play and teach both. Not to dis anyone, but I've always thought of the BG as more of a musical tool. I prefer the DB, but the BG has always been necessary and useful. There's a lot of great info here. One thing I'd say as a teacher is that IMO the BG has more potential for physical problems. It's easy to use bent wrists in particular, so tendonitis and carpal tunnel can easily develop if you're not careful and aware. A few lessons can be very important.
A couple things:
1. Any competent jazz teacher will put you through basic classical for a while because that IS the shortcut to good technique and intonation. You can get a teacher and get to a solid place in few years or take decades to get there on your own. 99% of the people who didn't get a teacher sound like didn't.
2. if it is a open question then don't bother with the bass guitar. If you are drawn to it and have a love for it then get one. My first teacher said, "You can't postdate your creativity". It helped reconcile working on difficult ideas and playing gigs that were way over my head and then going back to square one in the practice room (something I still do).
1. Any competent jazz teacher will put you through basic classical for a while because that IS the shortcut to good technique and intonation. You can get a teacher and get to a solid place in few years or take decades to get there on your own. 99% of the people who didn't get a teacher sound like didn't.
2. if it is a open question then don't bother with the bass guitar. If you are drawn to it and have a love for it then get one. My first teacher said, "You can't postdate your creativity". It helped reconcile working on difficult ideas and playing gigs that were way over my head and then going back to square one in the practice room (something I still do).
