Double Bass Double Stops are So Much Fun

[Who da Ville]

Disclaimer: I don't play much classical music, and have never played in an orchestra. However, my problem is related to arco technique, and this seem to be the forum most like to give me good advice. Sorry this is so long; feel free to ignore if you're not interested.

The last couple years, I've been spending a lot of time learning and playing old-timey (hillbilly) fiddle tunes solo (arco with German grip). A key to playing many of these tunes on a fiddle is the use of double stops. (My understanding is that the difference between a violin and a fiddle is that the fiddle's bridge is shaped differently to make double stops easier to play.) My strategy for playing these tunes is to learn the melody in 4 different positions on the fingerboard, and to find as many tasteful double stops as possible.

This has been a lot of fun, and I'm seeing my technique improve daily. Playing double stops has gone a long way to improve my intonation. The harmonics and overtones produced by the double stops has opened up my carved bass so that it rings. And, when I do it right, the sounds produced give me great joy.

I had been having consistent trouble in making smooth string changes, but recently followed the advice of some kind contributors on this board and modified my grip. My string changes immediately became much smoother, but I also immediately developed tendonitis in my right thumb. I'm now also dealing with sciatica (probably not related to the tendonitis, but who knows...it's all connected).

I've found that I had been unconsciously placing extra pressure on the bow in order to vibrate two strings at once and/or to 'make a statement', which likely caused the thumb tendonitis with the modified grip. So I've been working on long tone exercises using both single-string and double stops to try to find a more ergonomic way to vibrate two strings at once. This is going slowly, because I'm afraid that until I solve my problem I'll injure myself worse if I practice too much. I've been trying to find a qualified teacher in the Portland area to help me, but it seems that nobody wants to give personal lessons due to fear of Coronavirus.

I'm really not aware of other double bassists who use double stops extensively as part of their technique, but would love to look at videos of them playing if available.

Laruen Pierce has a couple of very informative lessons on youtube, but she's using French grip. She says the key factors in playing double stops is the balance point of the bow, faster bow speed, lower bow position, and increased weight. She has another great video lesson on using arm weight vs pressing, and my belief is that I have been correctly using arm weight, but am probably incorrectly applying that weight to the bow.

I think my problem is related to using my thumb to transfer the arm weight to the string, vs maybe using the index/ring finger combination. I find playing double stops easier if I also use my ring finger, but most of the info I've seen on German grip says the ring finger should be 'hanging in space.'

If you're still with me, thanks for listening. If you're aware of any videos I can watch of German grip double stop players, or lessons on playing double stops with German grip I'd appreciate your sharing.

I still plan to work with a qualified instructor when/if I can find one willing to give me a lesson.

 

[John Chambliss]

Check-out some of @Jason Sypher 's work on YouTube.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Just got this notification. I think much of what you have written sounds very thought out. Double-stops are something I incorporate a lot in my playing of fiddle tunes. What started off as fun drones ended up being used far more for syncopation and rhythmic emphasis than I ever expected. Of course the added harmony can really enhance and underpin a tune but the rhythmic usage of a key double stop, harmonic or otherwise, can be the difference between a tune that dances verses a tune that sounds like it shouldn't be played on a bass. By what you have written I have the instinct that you are trying too hard and holding the bow too tightly. Most students are shocked to find out how lightly I play and how little rosin I use! It's the old trick of "letting" the bow do the work instead of forcing sounds into existence. For the most part a person could easily come swat the bow out of my hand with little effort when I'm playing, it's really that loose. Getting two strings to play together seems a chore at first but the same rules for getting one string to vibrate follow with two strings. Getting that string started as quickly as possible and then not squashing the string, not allowing it to rotate freely and resonate, is key. I started on guts which are very floppy and don't like to sing under pressure so I learned quickly to play light. Fiddling is not classical section playing, you aren't in a supportive role, there's no need to bear down at all. In fact, it would be very hard to get the air in the fiddle tune if you were too stiff. Go back to observing how you start a string with the bow. For me, I rest the bow on the string lightly stopped, then, with an exhale, start the string. Start the sound and then keep it with bow speed. A full sound will vibrate the whole bass. The bass will breathe. Thin sound? Start again. You may trip in and out of a full sound, that's ok, but learn to identify when the bass is resonating fully. For me it would be like a subwoofer suddenly kicked in. I'd have it for a moment and then it would get thin again. Try to get the bass resonating and then keep it through the bow stroke. The idea is to immediately start the string, almost like plucking (but with the bow hair). After all, a bow is a series of pizzes that blur to become one sound. Think of that. Think of capturing the string with the bow hair, breath in, then starting the vibration with a "ping", a distinct beginning, then release as you draw the bow allowing the string to vibrate through the stroke. Same goes for two strings. I will say that bowing two strings for any length of time without some underlying plan can become tedious and muddy to the listener. Perhaps practice just glancing a double stop in a rhythmic fiddling pattern and letting it ring while you bow the other string. This adds a lot of movement and drive. Since the bulk of fiddle tunes are going to be in D, G, A you will find there are positions that give you more double stop opportunities near the octaves (near what electric players refer to as the 7th and 12th frets...shiver). This will follow for A, D and E minor or modal tunes. I would stick to these keys in the beginning until you map out the bass a bit. There you will find open strings and harmonics to inject into your tunes. Remember to always be aware of the the interior rhythm in a melody and keep that shuffle drive, no matter how subtle, when you play. I just got a new GoPro, perhaps I can better illustrate this with a simple video and send it to you?

 

[jheise]

In this case I strongly disagree with the advice given by Lauren Pierce:

1. the bow has to move at the speed of the lower note in a double stop, so it's possibly slower speed than you first expect. The lower note can not vibrate at the speed of the higher note.
2. if you play closer to the bridge, your bow speed has to become slower, too

Most important is, that you immediately stop to hurt yourself.

With German bow, you should be able to bring enough weight onto the string without even having the thumb on the bow. So no pressing at all should occur.
I'd suggest that you work on that first, so that your body can relax.
Try to bow a string only using the middle finger and pinky. Middle finger to keep the bow up, pinky to balance it. Bow from the shoulder, move your back muscles. Don't bow from the arm.
This takes some time, you'll probably have problems to grip the string at the beginning, sound will be thin etc. - but it will come.
Depending on which school you follow regarding your standing position you have several additional options to help that process. I follow the Gary Karr school and have my bass very upright so I am able to actually lean the bass into the bow.
Edit: link to the video:
Not 100% fitting but it might give you the idea.
Another edit, another video that might help:

You might not want to do both things from the start (leaning the bass and only have middle and pinky on the bow) because the fear of having your bass fall over might stiffen your body.

When I do that, I don't need more weight to bow a double stop compared to bowing a single string. I feel more resistance because it's two strings now but my back muscles are big enough to counter that ;-)

 

[PaulCannon]

My preference is to focus the bow on the lower note and "fold" the higher note into the sound. Really just play the lower note like normal and bring the bow up just enough that it catches the upper string.

Playing two notes at once doesn't mean you should press twice as hard.

 

[John Chambliss]

I just got a new GoPro, perhaps I can better illustrate this with a simple video and send it to you?

Please post. Very interested in seeing more of how you do what you do.

 

[Who da Ville]

Thanks to everyone for the excellent input. It all makes sense, and is the direction I'm trying to go. You've given me a lot to work on.

I've watched a few of Jason S's videos in the past, but will go back and study in more detail.

Words cannot describe my gratitude for taking the time to offer your sage advice.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Please post. Very interested in seeing more of how you do what you do.

Never thought I did anything different than anyone else until I started taking some lessons with bassists in the NY Phil. They were like "wait, what, show me that again!". It was a crazy thing to want to do fifteen years ago, fiddle-tunes on the bass. But now I get a lot more calls from players who are interested in learning how to do it. I think the Paul Kowerts, Jacob Warrens, Ethans etc have made it more of a thing. Many years ago I lost a bass competition at a Fiddlers Convention because the judges said "That's amazing but it isn't really bass playing". We've come a long way.

 

[Who da Ville]

the rhythmic usage of a key double stop, harmonic or otherwise, can be the difference between a tune that dances verses a tune that sounds like it shouldn't be played on a bass.

Agreed. I also feel this rhythmic interaction at times when I 'do it right'.

In my experience, many of these tunes come out more melancholy (sadder, rather than happier) when played on double bass. At times, I try to make them happier; most of the time, I prefer the melancholy feel. I also tend to play them a bit slower; partially due to my lack of skill to play faster, but mostly because slower enhances the melancholy feel, and that feels good to me.

It was a crazy thing to want to do fifteen years ago, fiddle-tunes on the bass. But now I get a lot more calls from players who are interested in learning how to do it.

My neighbor loaned me a book of fiddle tune transcriptions a couple of years ago. It changed my life. I was looking for etudes that were easy to play, but interesting enough that I'd want to keep playing them; these tunes were exactly what I was looking for. Then I progressed to playing in different positions and using double stops. All of the sudden these 'simple' tunes became avenues leading me toward more advanced techniques, while helping me to unlock much of the sonic potential within the bass in the different positions. FWIW, I bow Spirocore mediums, and am constantly amazed by the sounds that I can produce with these strings when I 'do it correctly'.


BTY: I just realize that I posted this in "Orchestrial Auditions" when I meant to post in "Orchestrial Technique". Oops...sorry. Mods feel free to move to a more appropriate place.

 

[garrett2]

This is off topic but I saw a video interview with Ethan Jodziewicz where he mentioned how he was influenced by John Hartford's fiddling and then plays a fiddle tune in Hartford's style. I thought it was incredible but haven't been able to find the interview again. Does anyone know it?