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Double Bass Double Stops
- Thread starter guillermo
- Start date
Ah!Ha! That's all I play is 10ths. I'm tuned in 5ths. Do you know where you play your octave...? That's my 10th! Easy to finger. I lay one finger across two strings & I have 5ths. Wow! My tuning is C,G, D,A (Chuck Israels calls me a contra-cello player!). Now I'm really going to stretch & make some controversy. Tuning in 4ths is just a compromise. I did it for 20 years. That's why a guitar tuned in 4ths has a 3rd on top. To compensate the ear for lack of harmonics. The overtone structure in 4ths is lacking (not open).(Of course this is why lowly bass players are treated with disrespect in orchestras). When I first started tuning in 5ths, I was playing very sharp. My ear soon made the adjustment (because harmonics/ overtones were different). But, everything else made more sense, especially fingering. My mentor at the time, Red Mitchell, explained that music naturally resolves V to I (5 to 1) & that's why it makes more sense.oliebrice said:
To answer your question: How often? It's a great sound for a solo or duo behind a horn, vocalist, piano, etc. if done with taste & at the right time. If you arbitrarily decide to start playing 10th, 5ths, 3rds, chords of any kind on bass especially behind someones solo, they'll probably pull your plug
!OK, I'm going on vacation for a week
Time for some golf?Larry Holloway said:Ah!Ha! That's all I play is 10ths. I'm tuned in 5ths. Do you know where you play your octave...? That's my 10th! Easy to finger. I lay one finger across two strings & I have 5ths. Wow! My tuning is C,G, D,A (Chuck Israels calls me a contra-cello player!). Now I'm really going to stretch & make some controversy. Tuning in 4ths is just a compromise. I did it for 20 years. That's why a guitar tuned in 4ths has a 3rd on top. To compensate the ear for lack of harmonics. The overtone structure in 4ths is lacking (not open).(Of course this is why lowly bass players are treated with disrespect in orchestras). When I first started tuning in 5ths, I was playing very sharp. My ear soon made the adjustment (because harmonics/ overtones were different). But, everything else made more sense, especially fingering. My mentor at the time, Red Mitchell, explained that music naturally resolves V to I (5 to 1) & that's why it makes more sense.
To answer your question: How often? It's a great sound for a solo or duo behind a horn, vocalist, piano, etc. if done with taste & at the right time. If you arbitrarily decide to start playing 10th, 5ths, 3rds, chords of any kind on bass especially behind someones solo, they'll probably pull your plug
OK, I'm going on vacation for a week
And he'd get the IIm7-V7 going with double stops of the minor 7th, e.g. G to F, followed by the 10th, C to E. And he's a creative pianist too, don't you think?Jason Sypher said:
Larry, I'll probably have to wait 'til your back from vacation to hear the answer, but; how did you make the transition to 5ths tuning, as a working bassist? I know from your website that you made the switch a few years ago. Did you just make the change cold? I usually don't even change strings until I get at least a two day break in my work; changing tunings for me would require considerably more time. 
Marcus: I'm back. I played cello for a semester in college(and I really sucked...I was a bass player!). Albeit it helped me understand the tuning & fingerings. So, before I changed my bass tuning, I got my old practice cello out of the closet. Played tunes on it for a day & then slapped the 5th tuning strings on my bass and never looked back. I could read chord changes, notes, play walking lines, etc., but I couldn't solo. Everything was upside down & backwards! I lost all my 'licks', so it MADE me use my ear. I started playing 'music' again. Of course now I have licks in 5ths. I think I'll change tuning about every 10 years so I can use my ear again. Just kidding. With the open sound and logical fingering, I'll never go back to 4ths.Marcus Johnson said:Larry, I'll probably have to wait 'til your back from vacation to hear the answer, but; how did you make the transition to 5ths tuning, as a working bassist? I know from your website that you made the switch a few years ago. Did you just make the change cold? I usually don't even change strings until I get at least a two day break in my work; changing tunings for me would require considerably more time.
I made the change while I was on the road with Buddy Morrows band. We had a week off & I went for it. It was a big band gig, so there weren't a lot of solos. I pretty much had the book memorized and it was all notes & changes, but I had to start reading the book again with numerous clams. It was a great way to learn the new tuning. I think I had another 4 months on the road to experiment & let it fall under my fingers. If I had changed while playing a jazz gig, show, or jobbing locally, I'd probably be selling shoes right now. Red told me he changed and wood shedded for a month. He was working with Andre' Preven at the time.
We could probably start a new topic or thread with this subject.
Always: Play Music, Play Golf, Play MusicPaul Warburton said:
Speaking of golf & bass players. You know Ray Brown was a golf nut. My good friend Larry Fuller was Rays' piano player when he died. They were in Indianapolis (I think), when it was about 101*. Larry told me he went out that afternoon, played the round of his life (he was bragging about how he had kicked butt). Went to his room for a rest before the gig that night, and never woke up. I'm just happy for him that he probably had one of his best rounds ever.
Larry Holloway said:
Sorry Larry, don't forget i've been a TBer for a while now....i've already drug these cats through ALL the Red stuff. I AM the resident expert on this!! So don't be messin' in my territory! Actually, i've done so much of it, these guys know better than to even bring up Reds name. There are a couple more Red freaks here on the Forum.
I guess that Previn session you're talking about was with a huge orchestra. Red played a clam and goofed a take. Previn was shocked and stared at Red. Red said quietly " I'll tell you later " He hadn't told Previn about the change!
Sorry Paul, I forgot that's why you have 5 strings.Paul Warburton said:
In all sencerity, you are my true mentor Paul. You made me listen and pointed me in the right direction. I honestly can't thank you enough.
Do a search in the bassists forum for Red Mitchell. I think there was the Red thread and then all the stuff came up again somewhere else, maybe the Don Thompson thread. A number of sides were discussed, including the ones with Hampton Hawes and Jim Hall.Jason Sypher said:
Larry Holloway said:
Thank you my son....Jason, you better get busy checking my posts on Red. There's a newer one called "Wasn't Red a great player" under bassists and some others about Reds tuning and pictures of his Claudot bass, plus tons of stories and lists of his older and newer recordings. It might just change your playing!
Yes Dono, that was when Red was principle at MGM>
Red mentored Scott LaFaro, Charlie Hayden and Gary Peacock.
Of course, I mentored Larry Holloway!
Just kidding, I'm really proud of Larry. He plays his ass off and most proud of the fact that I turned him on to Red, and of the few players i've mentored, he's the only one that had the balls and love of the music to do the fifth thing!!As i've said, if I had it all to do over again, I would try the fifths and the Rabbath stance.
Paul, did you ever talk to Red's widow about that great Artist House duo album with Jim Hall? Last I recall, it was out of print, maybe they were thinking about a reissue? I hope, I hope?...
Yeah, it's not available. I found someone who was able to dub me of a copy.Marcus Johnson said:
Gimme some time Marcus and i'll get a copy for you.
Larry, do you have this? Jim and Red at Sweet Basil's?
Colin Bailey has a good copy...i'll start suckin' up....
That would be great! I think I may even have left my vinyl copy over at my friend Brian Cuomo's house a few hundred years ago. I only have CD players now, my turntables and cassette players all crapped out long ago.Paul Warburton said:
Red was just brilliant on that album.
Yes. I have it on CD...1978 at Sweet Basil. I think I got it from Diane. She had a bunch of Reds CDs laying around in bulk. His solo on Waltz New (Jim Hall) is one of my favorites. I quote almost a whole chorus of his when I play Someday My Prince Will Come (same changes of course).Paul Warburton said:
Red's solo on his tune Beautiful is breath-taking.
Well, i've succeded in turning another thread into another Red thread. Sorry.
Well, i've succeded in turning another thread into another Red thread. Sorry.
I love the little Baroque-ish tag at the end of that tune, too. I'd love to (gasp) burn a CD copy of that one if possible, Larry. If it was available to buy, I'd just do that, but since it's out of print...desperate times and all...
