Downwizing PA to vocals only. What is your experience?

[AlexanderB]

Thinking of downsizing from a "real" (and good sounding!) PA to "speakers on sticks", vocals and kick drum only for the next gig. We have good instruments and backline, and I figured we will try this "organic, sound direct from the musicians" approach. Vocals would be in 12" Yamaha Club series speakers, but we could get a better setup if needed.

We play mainly older jazz, country and dance music (Unforgettable, Autumn leaves, Stardust, Jolene etc). The band is typically drums, bass, trumpet, saxophone, two guitars, organ and piano. Male and female vocalists. Next gig is approx 100-150 people on a 2000-ish sqft. dance floor. We and the backline are on a stage that is maybe 2ft high.

Do your audience typically seem happy with such minimalist (and period correct!) approach or do they prefer a more refined approach? Do you feel your music is well presented this way?

I used to do sound often, and not compromise on having enough rig and mikes, but this would be the exact opposite!

Any comments?

 

[Stumbo]

Raising the stage volume to fill the venue is a whole other thing. What about the brass? How about monitors? Will each musician follow stage directions to adjust their volume?

I'm from the"period correct" days and don't want to go back.

You can do "speakers on sticks" and still sound great but it's not by throwing on stage whatever you have on hand.

Something like powered Barefaced PA speakers and subs, digital mixer, enough monitors and mics might do it.

 

[Luckydog]

If its low volume and everyone can hear themselves, as well as the singers, it should work. Dont let the instuments crank up the volume, or it can go downhill quickly, IME.

 

[AlexanderB]

Thanks guys!

Very low stage SPL is not required or even wanted. On stage, we have a very reasonable volume today, but will need to increase it a LITTLE and aim the amps differently to carry the room. I run an Ampeg SVT-410HLF powered by 500W or more, guitar player has all tube Vox combo, drummer has a nice kit etc.

We have at least two 12" wedges with 31 band eq and plenty of power, so monitoring on stage is ok. PA gets digital compressor and tc electronics reverb for vocals FOH.

I see ups and downs with vocals only... The rather small area of "good" sound will be different for sure. Further from stage, instruments will sound wooly. On the other hand, patrons might like that they can have a conversation at the tables at the back of the room, without fighting guitar and keyboard sound from the PA.

 

[Bodeeni]

I do this all of the time. PA speakers on the floor when I don't want to blast people, with one turned in from the side as a monitor. Smaller rooms I may only use one speaker. Guitar uses a 15w amp, I am using a 1/12, drummer is pretty quiet. I use a mike for the sax and bleed to keys and bass through the PA as and if required. Most of my bar gigs my whole career have been like this. But it helps to have players that can self mix.

 

[el murdoque]

The Sax will need a mic, the trumpet is fine. I've played in an outfit like this and the trumpet player enjoyed that he could point his trumpet around the room when soloing.
The only issue will be the kickdrum. You will get the attack transported through the small cabs, but the oomph will be lost.
Bringing an active sub with a good 15 will remedy that - but also kind of defeat the whole Idea.

I must say that I prefer the low-stage-volume-and-everything-through-the-PA approach nowadays.
Running a Behringer X-Series board (X-air 18, X32 or X32 rack version), you can equip the FOH person with an iPad and enable them to make adjustments from anywhere in the room.
When both bass and guitars carry the room with their amps, it's a lot harder to adjust the volume after soundcheck.
A band with bass and two guitars, who can size down to a single speaker cab and a low wattage head, will have a total weight of the equipment that is roughly the same.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

With good players who understand blending, it can be done to great effect. Some of the best mixes I've had have been with no bass or full drum kit in the house.

Of course, the room has a lot to do with it. Some rooms and stages naturally compliment live sound without the need for a lot of reproduction from the PA. But as musicians, we're not always so lucky to play such rooms night after night.

 

[Wasnex]

Thinking of downsizing from a "real" (and good sounding!) PA to "speakers on sticks", vocals and kick drum only for the next gig. We have good instruments and backline, and I figured we will try this "organic, sound direct from the musicians" approach. Vocals would be in 12" Yamaha Club series speakers, but we could get a better setup if needed.

We play mainly older jazz, country and dance music (Unforgettable, Autumn leaves, Stardust, Jolene etc). The band is typically drums, bass, trumpet, saxophone, two guitars, organ and piano. Male and female vocalists. Next gig is approx 100-150 people on a 2000-ish sqft. dance floor. We and the backline are on a stage that is maybe 2ft high.

Do your audience typically seem happy with such minimalist (and period correct!) approach or do they prefer a more refined approach? Do you feel your music is well presented this way?

I used to do sound often, and not compromise on having enough rig and mikes, but this would be the exact opposite!

Any comments?

This is probably closer to the normal approach than not.

If better speakers are available I would say yes to using them...IMHO the 12" Yamaha Club Series are not great. Don't expect much from mic'ing the bass drum with these, and I do agree the sax will probably need a mic. Also, set up your amps to point at the audience if you don't normally do so.

Start sound check by getting a good mix of the band, then add the vocals. Make sure and check how much headroom you have as it will be fairly easy for the band to overpower the little Yamahas. Volume discipline is key here as the desire to turn up is magnified when you are not plugged into the PA.

Have someone in the band (sax or trumpet perhaps?) go out front throughout the night and report back on the balance, so people can make informed volume adjustments. Discuss volume discipline before the gig begins.

Do your best to aim the sound exactly where it is needed. Hopefully you have something like K&M Speaker tilt adapters Link Removed

Relax and have fun.

 

[delta7fred]

Do your audience typically seem happy with such minimalist (and period correct!) approach or do they prefer a more refined approach?

Over the last 50 years I've played 99.9% of gigs with a vocals only PA and never once has an audience member suggested it would have sounded better with everything through the PA.

If you don't have a sound person then you need someone you trust FOH to get the mic and backline levels correct. These levels need to be rigidly adhered to if you don't want to drive the audience away.

In my band the guitarist operates the mixer and I walk FOH and indicate what needs adjusting. We have both been at this long enough that 90% of the time we get the levels right first time, it is difficult rooms where we usually need to adjust things a bit.

 

[rockdoc11]

I play in a 1960s British Invasion tribute band (among others) that does lots of outdoor shows during the summer months (car shows, etc.). We run only vocals and kick through the PA.

I'm wireless on bass, and so I wander out during sound check (if we get one) or during the first song (if we don't) to figure out who (Guitar 1, Guitar 2, Bass)needs to turn up or down.

It's surprisingly effective, especially with experienced musicians who can dial in their sound to match the overall band. It wouldn't be my personal first choice, but it does seem to work.

 

[Hundred proof]

Vocals and or vocals and kick, is the norm for most bands at your typical sports bar/venue around here. They really don't want volume much past the stage area, hearing drink orders at the bar and tables is what it's all about. So many people on this site seem to be obsessed with a wall of sound with SUBs god save us from subs! If a venue has a sound person and a nice house setup great if not, I'm not hauling in a system that needs lots of setup and tear down time.

 

[filmtex]

Vocals and or vocals and kick, is the norm for most bands at your typical sports bar/venue around here. They really don't want volume much past the stage area, hearing drink orders at the bar and tables is what it's all about. So many people on this site seem to be obsessed with a wall of sound with SUBs god save us from subs! If a venue has a sound person and a nice house setup great if not, I'm not hauling in a system that needs lots of setup and tear down time.

I agree. It's called Sound Reinforcement for a reason!

 

[jthisdell]

That size room and crowd it is very easy to do just vocals through PA although as has been said you may need to do the horns, my only recent experience with horns was at very reasonable volume gypsy jazz when the sax did not need mic. IME audiences like to talk and socialize and lower volume overall really helps. I've been in a 60's electric rock band (Dead, Byrds, Beatles) that has electric guitar, drums, bass, vox and we only run vox through PA, two Yamaha powered DBR12's on poles, two 10's for monitors and a Soundcraft board and it works well. Running everything through a full PA IMHO makes it easy for everything to get too loud. Running a minimalist PA makes gigs work and sound more like rehearsals.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Nothing wrong with it, but it will take a little time (and discipline) to get and keep levels). I've been in a band (drums, bass, guitar, vocals/sax) that has done exactly this for several years.

 

[RustyAxe]

We aren’t playing big rooms. We play at a local social club. Average about 90-100 people. We only run vocals through our aging Peavey PA, everything else is amps only. It works because we all know how it is supposed to sound where we stand. We run two floor monitors for the BL and drummer, and I have a small spot monitor. Four of us sing lead/harmony vocals. We’re OK with it.

In my acoustic trio we run everything through the PA.

 

[_Some Dude]

Some of the best sounding gigs I’ve been to (as an audience member) have been vox and kick through the PA. Sound live off the stage sounds better since it’s hitting your ears from multiple sources, provided you do it right.

Those who want to be blasted by the sound will naturally move to the front, and those who don’t will move to the rear.

I recommend a soundman, or a trusted set of ears out in the audience. We did one a couple years ago where the soundman moved around the room, then adjusted the master volumes on our amps until he was happy with the mix. Was a bit weird having him touch our amps, but I couldn’t argue with the results.

 

[juancaminos]

We did both but everything thru the PA was a PITA. So normal sized bars just got the vocals and sometimes the kick. Large gigs went thru the pa in aggregate. Our band and the various players that floated in and out were used to a vocals only set up so they were good at volumes. The opposite was true for running every thing thru the pa, it really bugs some people who are not used to it.