Dr DIMENTO'S ONGOING "J" STYLE PUP EXPERIMENT

[luknfur]

FENDER CUSTOM SHOP 60's J SET

True Single coils (to my knowledge)
Flat bi-pole Alnico 5 mags, formvar winding
2 cloth leads per pup

Loaded into an acoustically midrange bass. Output better than average. Suprisingly little hum and that's with only the neck ground plate installed as the bridge ground plate had some goofy extension on it that I assume is designed for a Fender bass. Finger/pick transfer was primarily complimentary. Worked well to finger and flatpick. Sensitivity to attack, technique, and postion about average. Little less than average sustain.

The first thing that struck me about these pups is they have a pronounced HC (hum-canceling) or HB quality to their tone (Noiseless, DM Ultra, KS J45's, etc) that I don't associate with vintage Fender single coil J's. There's frequently a dullness/muffledness to the tone of J HB's and to a lessor degree in many hum-canceling J's as well. HB's also tend to either have a thick quality to tone or thin and transparent. The SD Antiquity's and Fralins didn't sound like vintage Fender single coil J's to me either but the CS was able to pull a much fatter and fuller tone than they did as well as pull their tone. My assumption is there apparently must be a vintage Fender tone other than the Vintage Fender J pup (ie. Marcus Miller pups) type tone I'm familiar with. I've wondered where makers were coming from on these reproduction "Vintage" pups. This must be it.

The CS's are different from the JHB's and HC's in the sense that they are much more versatile tonewise and close to being a crossover to the Vintage Fender pup tone. In general the CS's had an inherently contemporary, refined, active quality about them and didn't sound passive old school to me with few exceptions. Ample frequency spectrum. They can go dark or bright and thick or thin. Fat as any pup I recall with bulge (swell) in tone to match and slap tone bright. They can be lively as hell with an appealing active/electronic-like rawness about them or as equally dull and lifeless as they can be lively, depends on adjustment and what they're played to. They can nail an JHB-like tone and they can approximate the Vintage Fender Pup tone, to get the brightness and single coil tone the bottom drops out noticeably and they're not as clear. That may be an issue of more time with the pup cause my gut tells me there are some untapped tones in the CS pup.

Even though the CS pups retain they're general characteristics, different gear accentuated different aspects of tone. Useable tone was not hard to come by through simple controls but I found the more controls I had, the more tweaking I was doing and the harder it was to find what I was looking for.

Worked well to J and P tone tunes. I'm heavy on a bridge pup but some neck was nearly always in the mix and I was able to mix much more neck pup and get an appealing and unique tone that had a focused midrange. Typically the more neck the darker and duller the tone but the CS neck retained considerable clarity well into the mix. J pup had no problem standing alone when used with a pre.

Fair amount of growl; decent punch; some bulge at times (ala Westwood's Bass Bible), nice rawness in terms of fuzz, buzz, complimentary string glaze. Not much in the way of transparency and useably fading strings. One thing common to some of the HB and HC is excessive transparency in tone and these pups were anything but transparent (transparent in the sense of unheard/not cutting tone)

The pups worked passably to all tunes, better than average to probably 50% or so. Didn't really excell at any as it was more of an interesting pup to play than fun. Volume, tone, sensitivity, clairity, and cut even across the board. An extremely balanced pup. No strictly solo tones noted but played well to brief "in-tune" solo parts.

Very interesting pups and not what I expected at all.


FLUFF:

I played these pups through various gear including SS power and combo amp, tube head, stereo direct out of the bass, into a passive mixing box with v/v/t, and into a Fender Victor Bailey preamp in outboard form.

 

[luknfur]

Fender Samarium Cobalt Noiseless (SCN5’s)
Stair Step Poles
Transparent white top bobbin
Stacked JHB’s w/Samarium Cobalt mags ran horizontally along the breaks in the coils

Synopsis

Bit of a difficult review because the pups have a deceptive chameleon-like character so they were on the hard-to-pin-down side.

Pups are so clean and refined they have a synthetic colorless quality yet are surprisingly versatile in application to a broad variety of tunes. Ample bass, mids, and treble that mix well. Easy to get a passable tone and good variety in tone from neck, bridge, and pups mixed. Worked well to finger and flatpick.

I still don’t feel I’ve tapped all the pups can do cause tone to tunes varied considerably with a different EQ mix and, even though small adjustments could make a significant difference, I still got passable tone with some dramatic eq swings. For the second run I pretty much just used a standard setting and tweaked off it.

Whole Enchilada

Pair of them loaded into an acoustically midrange 4 string bass (yep 5 string pups in 4 string bass - doesn‘t matter) in standard position. Atypical pup to string height adjustment (see Fluff) and that in turn affects lots of things. Output above average set flat but I had a fair amount of cut going in the preamp so output was reduced. A little noise killed by touching strings but temporary installs so I didn’t make much of that. Some irritating finger transfer in the form of a “pat” to tone when trebled up but not of consequence to tunes (when pups were elevated finger transfer was an issue and was accompanied by an unappealing presence in tone). Worked well to finger and flatpick and the pups clearly distinguished a medium from thin pick. Sensitivity to attack, hand position, and technique on the low side of average overall yet the pups accentuate sloppy play. Sustain, average or a little less maybe.

First play solo they sounded like JHB’s but even more refined (like ran through a Sadowsky pre/di) and that quality was inherent in them. They put out a very pure, refined tone that almost seems a standard I hear from pro’s playing 5’s. They struck me as sterile/synthetic on a number of occasions but I could throw some rawness into them with aggressive attack. Even though they sound contemporary and seem a natural for jazz (worked well with the Poly V combo amp too), I got some very passable cops otherwise: T-Bird-like wrecking ball tone from the neck pup, dark Fender 60’s J with blend at the detent, a brighter 70’s from J bridge only, a very passable P tone to the P track, a percussive ARCO-like tone, and decent slap.

Ample bass, mids, and treble that mixed well. What became the standard setting was bass and mids half cut (about 6dB) and treble half boost and I tweaked out of that - typically not much and treble primarily. E string was traditional Fender in the sense of being mostly made up of attack and when I tried to get some definition tone became rubbery/flabby. TI flats feel like rubber bands but I’ve never had a pup transfer that feel into a tone. So I left well enough alone. Mids were flexible, appropriate in frequency but inclined to be bland and lack color. Top end was mostly useful for adding some bite/taking the edge off or extending the midrange to avoid increasing mids and losing definition.

Tone of these pups was as clean and colorless as I can recall. That’s blatantly apparent solo; different for bridge, neck, and pups combined; and yielded a very appealing tone at the detent with flatpick. Typically I think of a transparent amp as something desirable but I’ve never thought of a bass in that way. If there were such a thing I’m guessing this would be it.

Pups were user friendly in the sense it didn’t take much to get a useable tone out of them and they worked at least passably to a broad range of tunes with minimal adjustment as long as the pup mix remained constant. They weren’t user friendly in the sense I could pretty much tweak till tweaked out getting various nuances in tone and, if I jacked with the pup mix, I had to tweak to get them to work decently unless I just wanted a darker/brighter tone of the same.

Pretty refined tone without much rawness but I got some growl, grind, complimentary string graze, snap to flat pick, and a peculiar capacity to put out a sort of massive tone that I associate with extended range basses but not extended range pickups. For the most part warmth was on the synthetic side so I’d say lukewarm pups.

Pups worked passably to all tunes and better than average to most in the sense they put out a solid pro tone. If it weren’t for that I’d say just passably to all tunes as tones was interesting but nothing that made me smile or particularly fun to play. My guess is such tones are there but not that I found in the time I had. Volume, tone, sensitivity, clarity, and cut even across the board. I didn’t experience a controlled fading of strings but tone could be thinned or thickened just by pup mix. There’s some good variety in tone from neck to equal blend to bridge. The neck retains clarity and is just darker and louder.


Fluff:

The pups were ran in standard J position with a blend only onboard > Personus EQ3B (or Fender Deluxe Pre ran outboard)> Art Mic Tube Pre > QSC parallel out > pair Aguilar GS112’s.

First I just sat down solo and ran the pups (neck, detent, bridge) through the EQ3B in varying mixes to get a feel. I started the actual run with the EQ3B but once I got the pup height issue resolved, I swapped to the Fender Deluxe (which is what these pups came with in the bass originally) ran outboard.

I initially set the pups as I typically do but the top half was too bright and the E string was distinctly lower in output. Dropped the treble side of both pups to mellow it and even output. The E string was still on the weak side so I raised the bass side of the bridge pup and that balanced them. In the end, the G string was blatantly further from the strings than the E on both pups.

I played to my standard tunes (addressed way back in the first post of this thread) EQ’ing to bridge only cause that’s my preference. During each tune I’d pan from bridge to detent to neck retaining bridge EQ and adjusting with technique. Not ideal for neck and a pup mix but gives me a ballpark which is all I’m interested in there.

Something else that may factor in is that I've essentially been playing through a V Bass for 3 months. It could very well be that the reason this pup seemed so sterile is becuase of that contrast. I really haven't played enough other mags lately to have a feel for that.

I should also mention that to my knowledge these were designed for by Bill Lawrence.

 

[luknfur]

Dark Star
2 lead single coil (probably a DSN-3)
2 Alnico 5 bar Mags
F spaced pup (18mm)
1 ¾“ x 2 ¾“ roughly (estimated with it mounted with trim ring on)
(see fluff for additional detail)


Synopsis:

Interesting pup but mostly it just puts out a good solid quality flexible (plays well to various genres) bass tone. Worked well finger, flatpicked, or slapped. Very balanced frequency wise but with a cutting midrange that‘s not quite nasal and not quite burp. Very Clear and strangely refined. Better than average output and sustain. Has a unique acoustic/hollowbody character to tone.


Whole Enchilada:

Loaded into an acoustically bright bass (see fluff for pup location). Volume about high side of average (seems DCR was about 9K). Very little hum. Sensitivity to attack, hand position, and technique average. These sensitivities may seem underrated to those who have a DS but to me it‘s the clarity that makes them appear more. Sustain better than average. Noticeable finger transfer on trebly settings but nothing of consequence. Worked well finger, flatpicked, or slapped. Especially enjoyable to flatpick.

Interesting pup but mostly it just puts out a good solid quality flexible (plays well to various genres) bass tone. Very balanced frequency wise but with a cutting midrange that‘s not quite nasal and not burp - so nasurp sounding I guess. Full (can be thick) bottom and midrange, top end with an airy side to it (noticeable thin/transparent quality), good clarity. All 3 bands are complimentary. Sounds bizarre but it has a unique acoustic/hollowbody character to tone. I say unique cause I can recall no pup I’ve installed in these solidbody basses that have done that so far, not in your face but it‘s clearly distinguishable to much music and obvious solo. Sounded very much like Fred’s clips in the hollowbody on his site. Playing the pup it frequently felt like I was playing a hollowbody. This in combination with the clarity, thickness, and cutting nasurp gives a core quality to the tone that to me is what makes this pup stand out from the rest.

Just tweaking and playing to tunes I was surprised there wasn’t much variety in terms of rawness - the pup is strangely refined. Pretty user friendly and doesn’t require extreme tweaking. Little fuzz to tone, luke warm overall (varies), a noticeably thicker E. Using the Bassman amp model I evened up bass/mid/treble then cut mids a bit and a very P-like hollowbody emerged - pretty thumpy, a warmer pup when darkend up and good for some VMorrison. Hit the shape button for some Reggae. Then released the shape button cut bass/boost mids/cut treble half bass cut and got a nice J-like hollowbody tone with some growl for Buffett. I took that same tone and applied it to a number of tunes that would normally call for a P-like tone (like Pickett’s Midnight Hour) and it threw a complimentary harmonic quality on top of the tune without losing the bottom end - didn’t have the fat bottom but it wasn’t really missed. I was a bit surprised at how well it worked. Most pups that could produce a similar P tone would be incompatibly on the treble side if done the same.

Played better than average to everything. Can get thick and thin tones. Played real well to the P track. Volume, sensitivity, clarity, and cut even across the board.

Fluff:

A guy bought this pup new for a project that didn’t come to pass so it ended up at my door.

Ran the pup through various rigging but the review was done through a Roland bass cube 30 using various amp models - swapping amp models at least as much as tweaking frequencies (quicker and sometimes all that’s needed). The pup was ran straight to the jack with no onboard controls thus working off the amp. TI JF334’s. I’m guessing this pup would accentuate tone variation achieved through using different types of strings.

The pup was installed with the “screw adjusters” toward the bridge in line with standard J bridge position. So the poles read an inch toward the neck beyond that. I needed a 1 inch deep route for this pup and mine are only ¾” but one bass I had routed out for the third coil in a Sterling pup so I basically had a 1” deep route ¾” in length - so that’s where I put it. Fred said some dudes cut the adjuster screws back to decrease the depth of the pup but not a cheap pup and I’m not about to do that. I’ll check with him about just getting some shorter screws cause that ¼” of extra screw stop is the difference between stuck where it is and freedom of movement. It's like having to deal with routes all over again. I think this is one of the few pups I could enjoying playing at the neck position.

I’ve read several comments about the output of the pup being hot. I checked the pup (same amp, same settings, same bass location ran to jack) against a G&L L 2000 pup and Dimarzio X2N-B and the Dark Star doesn‘t have near the output of those pups.

Aside from good tone, the Dark Star pup is a very well crafted esthetically appealing piece of bass hardware to boot.

After note:

Sold the V Bass to force myself to use the Podxt which I started doing yesterday. Haven’t read much about Pod users being particularly enthusiastic about the Super Thor patch but it works very well to a broad range of styles with the Dark Star pup. I’m guessing the patch is a take off of the old Gibson Thor amp. Sometimes there are unique combinations that work well together and it struck me this may be one so thought I ‘d post it for those that have both, maybe get some feedback. Simply ran pod through a QSC power amp to a pair of GS112’s. May be different through a different rig but who knows.

 

[A9X]

Neat addition to your reviews Dr D.
I've been thinking about a pair of these for a long time, and it's interesting to have your review to reference against the others.

 

[luknfur]

Neat addition to your reviews Dr D.
I've been thinking about a pair of these for a long time, and it's interesting to have your review to reference against the others.

Sup Aussie,

Yeh I think anybody that likes a different useable tone would appreciate a Dark Star. The Bass Player Mag review seemed to think it was good for vintage stuff but not contemporary tunes which I found an odd statement. Doesn't put out a synthetic/digitized/ preamped sort of tone but there's a lot of pups that don't that play perfectly well to contemporary tunes. So I don't know what they meant by that.

Guess Paul's changed the server again cause with the last one I could edit all the old posts so I could have put the Dark Star in the table of contents for this thread. The server before had a 30 day cap for editing. Guess this ones the same way cause I can't edit older stuff.

 

[CElton]

I have had the PodXT for 6 months and I find that I get better tone with the cab emulation off when I use it as a pre on my rig. The Ampeg SVT sounds really good as does the GK, SWR. The Line6 jazz tone is a Roland JC120 guitar amp and I use it a lot when running direct to the board.

I have channels set up to run live with the rig and some channels set up to run direct to the board for small gigs.

I really like it. I don't see why the thing doesn't get any more love here on TB...

 

[luknfur]

I have had the PodXT for 6 months and I find that I get better tone with the cab emulation off when I use it as a pre on my rig. The Ampeg SVT sounds really good as does the GK, SWR. The Line6 jazz tone is a Roland JC120 guitar amp and I use it a lot when running direct to the board.

I have channels set up to run live with the rig and some channels set up to run direct to the board for small gigs.

I really like it. I don't see why the thing doesn't get any more love here on TB...

Some people just don't like modeling but the Sans Di is the only other gear I can think of that's got near as much luv as the pod. Everybody's had one and there's probably 50-100 of them for every V bass on Ebay. I'm not sure how much more successful you could be in terms of sales for a nitch item. Lot of luv/money going on there somewhere.

 

[luknfur]

Hagstrom Single Coil

Installed in an acoustically bright bass located a J width toward the neck from typical J position (see Fluff). Output better than average. Some hum that varied from none to moderate depending on settings. Some finger transfer in the form of a “pat” that typically is irritating to me but actually works with the tone for the most part, and can be diminished/increased by playing up or down the neck. Worked well to finger and flat pick. Response to attack, hand position, and technique about average. Sustain varied depending on settings and could vary from below average to better than average.

Warm, vintage tone with mild to moderate clarity. Fairly balanced pup frequency wise but with an airy top end and tweaking to control it basically comprised all control adjustments. I played this pup indoors and outdoors and it was more airy outside with no walls. Interestingly the pup never morphed into being boxie regardless of the mid frequency setting. Very little rawness overall but noticeably woody and percussive. Little growl and some appealing grazing and grind from strings depending on settings.

A variety of tones including some huge rumble tones to melodic jug bass-like. A bit unique as it was not like but in the same category as McCartney Hofner tone. Also more conventional P-like tones. Took some tweaking to get it to work well to J tunes. Good solid bass tone that in general is user friendly, or at the least, works well to a broad range of styles with minimal tweaking once a base tone is obtained. The pup also reflected changes in amp models quite well, which is to say the pup sounded quite different by simply changing the amp model and nothing else.

Pup played quite passably to better than average to pretty much all the tunes and really didn’t seem to excel or lack to enough to recall. The major issue was the imbalance across strings (see Fluff).

Fluff:

Signal Chain: Bass (pup wired straight to jack - no onboard controls) > Roland D-bass 210 with a Roland Bass Cube 30 ran through it’s effects loop. Among other tone shaping the D-bass has 3 amp models (flat, modern, vintage), 2 preamp models (tube, ss), a mid frequency control that varies from 100 Hz - 3 kHz as well as an effects mix permitting variations from 100% D-Bass - 100% cube (which has 5 additional modeled amps - Fliptop, etc), and variable tweeter (off-100%).

This is a narrow spaced G scale pup that basically looks like a real short J pup. It was placed about ¾” toward the neck from typical bridge J position cause any closer to the bridge and it looked like there would be an issue reading the strings. I could have moved the Schaller bridge rollers in and moved the pup back but I didn’t bother. A J width isn’t going to make a difference worth dinking with. The pup also has radius poles and the A&D strings were more pronounced with the G string not far behind but the E string was problematically lower volume. Typically a harder attack on the E will compensate but didn’t happen with this pup. I raised the E side and dropped the G within limits of the screw angles but no change of any consequence.

This pup was a loaner from TB'r GlennW whom I thank. For the most part I avoid vintage pups but periodically curiosity gets the best of me.

 

[A9X]

You're back! I thought you'd taken up some other hobby like crocheting doilies.

 

[luknfur]

You're back! I thought you'd taken up some other hobby like crocheting doilies.

Nope, never left really. There just aren't many pups I'm interested in checking out any more. I'm a lot more selective now (just a few of interest) unless the price is right - which it hasn't been.

I've been focused on outboard modeling stuff the last year - which may be shifting over to computer recording soon (though I've been thinking of that for years it seems).

Actually I briefly tried crocheting once but couldn't keep the stitches (whatever they're called) consistent.
----------

GO PACKERS!

 

[guidobassman]

Where would I get a Bartolini 9k Jazz set? I can't seem to find them online. Also are the pole pieces exposed?

 

[kylierider]

Just completed this thread. A very useful read.

I know it's a reply to an old thread but are Bart 9k set still available. I've looked everywhere and have not seen them listed..

 

[Alex Popovics]

BARTOLINI 9V J-STYLE HUMBUCKERS (?)

Passive single wire with ground but these pups are wired in series which have 5 posts on the pup backs with jumpers indicating they are essentially 4 wire bumbuckers. Only mention I saw of them on the Bart site was they were hum-cancelling J’s.

Installed in the acoustically dark bass. Output considerably less than average. Slight hum noticed. Finger transfer apparent on G string with treble or mids boosted but nothing of consequence in this run. Less sensitive to attack than average.

Very strange Bart pups to me. Dark J tone that sounds like humbuckers. Low mid mid mid oriented. Warm, dare I say, vintage tone. Not the clarity typically associated with Barts at all. Average clarity. Nice, soft, mid J tone that worked passably to all tunes and, in general, not much better. Very restricted pup in terms of variations in sound and tone. No growl, no bulge. Volume, sensitivity, tone, clarity, and cut even across the board. Preamps didn’t seem to make a significant difference but volume was cut still further and the preamps did cut into the vintage-like tone.

Maybe it’s the dark bass and TI’s but these pups struck me as being primarily a one trick pony: probably very good for smooth jazz - or perhaps styles where you want the presence of a bass but don’t want to hear it. But a very pleasant, warm, soft, dark J tone.

ADDENDUM:

I wondered how these would do in one of the acoustically bright basses so popped them in one. Not a major difference but noticeably less dark with more mid mid upper mid influence. No growl or bulge regardless – but getting close. Actually worked very well to Reggae, to a bit lessor degree R&B and, to a lessor degree still, blues. But the brighter bass extended the range of acceptability to other styles as well. Also wanted to try some flat-picking cause I suspected the pups may work well to a flat pick, which they did. Both a thick and medium flat pick helped to extend the range of playability for these pups. No irritating pick transfer noted. Didn’t have a thin flat pick but suspect that may be pushing the parameters but don’t know cause didn’t try it. But with a flat pick you could probably get by without to many dirty looks from the guitarist and singer on some of the marginal styles.

 

[Alex Popovics]

Thank you for your incredible expertise.
I just posted another inquiry about these unique pickups.
I did see another posting of yours years ago in this forum mentioning that this is indeed the only magnetic pickups that allows individual strings outputs being separated. Apparently they were produced for a very short period with the original intent to make them Midi compatible, since it didn't work very well, they were sold as regular mono pickups for the most part.
I got them in the mid eighties when I asked Doug Roomian to build me a bass where I could split the strings outputs individually just as I already had on my upright bass with a custom RMC preamp. I was in luck because Bartolini just recently launched these pickups with this unusual capability of splitting the strings. We did at the time what I requested, splitting the two lower strings from the two higher strings having two separate jacks. Fast forward decades and I became mesmerized with Michael Manring's vision using his Hyperbass that has a custom Bartolini that allows the splitting of strings individually through a multipin din. He has for live applications if desired, a splitter box with an XLR coming from the Hyperbass and four 1/4 jacks. I just ordered from Galaxy Audio a four way 1/4 jack splitter box with a 1/4 jack input. I also am considering using Bartolini two-2 channel buffers. Also just a couple of days ago I purchased online a used 5 string Fretless Godin, with the RMC piezzo pickups in combination with a custom magnetic pickup. It has a multi din RMC Midi output. I would like to also split the strings maybe reverting another Galaxy Audio splitter box input to output, in both cases I would have to drill a multipin din input. My goal is to use two amps with 2 preamps for the Roomian and a third amp for the Godin 5th string. Any ideas of how to wire the Bartolinis in parallel to use the four knobs on the bass as volume control and ignore tone controls? Also to wire the four outputs through a multipin din output on the bass? Lastly I'm not sure is even possible, but would it be feasible to also have a second output wiring simultaneously in mono? (This is definitely not a must), it would be amazing though, just as the Hyperbass although it has only one pickup instead of two on my Roomian. Cheers