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Drum Tracking Question

fcleff

fcleff

Inactive
Apr 22, 2005
1,461
16,432
Austin, Texas
#1
Normally I don’t have any real issues tracking drums (I’m kind of new at it and still low on the learning curve) and can get some good results. It doesn’t matter if it is me playing or someone else.

Recently I tracked the drummer in my metal band. He hits stupid hard. I had a tough time getting mic placement and preamp settings balanced. Once I found it we were good to go and things went well for about three songs. Then, as he got tired, he started hitting harder. He was clipping the preamps like crazy. I tried moving the mics farther away to comp for this as the preamps were already very low. I asked if he could reign in the power a little bit he just couldn’t. He hits hard. End of story.

When I listened back to the songs in question I found them extremely hard to EQ because mic placement had gotten so far away. So the question at the end of all this goes to the more experienced recording engineers of the bunch (or anyone with experience in this area, really). What do you do in a situation where the drummer is hitting freaky hard and you don’t have a lot of time to play with mic selection/placement?

f
Edit: 57-snare, Beta 52A-kick, AT2020-ride, low tom, AT2021-overhead.
 
#4
byacey said:
If he's clipping the preamps, limiters and compression won't help as they are inserted after the preamp. Do you have the 20db pads engaged on the preamp input? Short of that, maybe find a drummer that can play with self control. Usually the better, more experienced drummers have entire control over their level and dynamics.
Click to expand...
It’s been a while since the session so I’m not 100% sure I was using the 20db pads but I’m fairly certain that I was. Thanks for the reminder. I’ll be more attentive to that next time, regardless of who the drummer is.
I was a little spoiled from the session before this one. That drummer had great control over his dynamic range. He understood the concept of hitting well, not hard.
f
 
#5
Why did you move the mics away instead of just taking the mic gain down? Dynamic mics are usually not very sensitive and at zero gain, they should not be getting anywhere near clipping. Condensers, though, can sometimes clip even at zero gain when close micing, so you may just have to use more dynamics than you’re used to. To that note, I don’t know what you’re accomplishing with a ride mic on a metal drummer. Just put a dynamic on every individual drum and a couple of overheads. Keep the gain super low on every mic.

On a more general note, many people follow analog era advice that don’t really apply to digital recording. In analog, you want the input gain to be a decent amount so that you’re not introducing analog noise, but in 24-bit digital recording, there’s no real point in trying to do that when you can usually apply up to like 35-40 dB gain safely after the fact, since converter noise is usually negligible compared to acoustic noise. Keep your levels lower than you think you need to if you’re having trouble with peaking, and don’t worry about average levels being too low. One time I was in such a time crunch that I just recorded every last drum mic, all 12 of them, at 0 dB gain. Guess what, the results were absolutely fine, with no audible noise from having to apply digital gain on most tracks. And even if you do increase the noise floor by doing this, on a drum track, it’s not going to be that big a deal. Certainly not as big a deal as peaking.

Of course, if you’re recording in 16 bit, then disregard what I just said, but nobody should be recording in 16 bit.
 
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#6
I usually track 24 bit with peaks at approx -18 db. This gives drummers ample headroom. If the drums don't sound good, you can always supplement them with samples. I've done this in the past. The one problem is when you do it with one drum, you might need to do it with the others or else the sound difference can be pretty big.
 
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#9
honeyiscool said:
Why did you move the mics away instead of just taking the mic gain down? Dynamic mics are usually not very sensitive and at zero gain, they should not be getting anywhere near clipping. Condensers, though, can sometimes clip even at zero gain when close micing, so you may just have to use more dynamics than you’re used to. To that note, I don’t know what you’re accomplishing with a ride mic on a metal drummer. Just put a dynamic on every individual drum and a couple of overheads. Keep the gain super low on every mic.

On a more general note, many people follow analog era advice that don’t really apply to digital recording. In analog, you want the input gain to be a decent amount so that you’re not introducing analog noise, but in 24-bit digital recording, there’s no real point in trying to do that when you can usually apply up to like 35-40 dB gain safely after the fact, since converter noise is usually negligible compared to acoustic noise. Keep your levels lower than you think you need to if you’re having trouble with peaking, and don’t worry about average levels being too low. One time I was in such a time crunch that I just recorded every last drum mic, all 12 of them, at 0 dB gain. Guess what, the results were absolutely fine, with no audible noise from having to apply digital gain on most tracks. And even if you do increase the noise floor by doing this, on a drum track, it’s not going to be that big a deal. Certainly not as big a deal as peaking.

Of course, if you’re recording in 16 bit, then disregard what I just said, but nobody should be recording in 16 bit.
Click to expand...
I’m new at this and have been playing with a lot of different mic placement techniques. So the advice offered here is valuable. And nope, not recording in 16bit.
f
 
#10
fcleff said:
I’m new at this and have been playing with a lot of different mic placement techniques. So the advice offered here is valuable. And nope, not recording in 16bit.
f
Click to expand...

If you ever want to do more experimentation sometime, I could bring over a bunch of mics. We just live tracked last weekend. 16 channels just for the drums.
35400222_1703981503053302_1785861295896002560_o.jpg
 
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#11
Frank Tuesday said:
If you ever want to do more experimentation sometime, I could bring over a bunch of mics. We just live tracked last weekend. 16 channels just for the drums. View attachment 3064944
Click to expand...
Ah very cool. You are in Austin. For sure, let’s get together sometime. If you’d ever like to meet up for a beverage, too, I’m game. It’s always nice to meet other people and talk shop.
We could track some drum parts with me on drums sometime, too.
f
Edit: I only have 8 preamps on my interface so I can do up to 8 tracks for drums right now (which I’ve found to be more than enough).
 
#14
Frank Tuesday said:
If you ever want to do more experimentation sometime, I could bring over a bunch of mics. We just live tracked last weekend. 16 channels just for the drums. View attachment 3064944
Click to expand...
I love having different mics, for sure. Like I said, I was tracking with 12, but now that my current interface has 16, I might try 16. But to me, the heart of the kit is the OH, the kick, then the snare. Everything else is just fun. To me, it goes like this in order of decreasing importance:

1. OH - I usually use a technique that has a pretty good full kit sound already, like Recorderman, Glyn Johns, M/S, or Blumlein method. I don't like techniques like XY or AB that require the use of close mics to sound good.

2. Kick - I close mic for my main one. I like to stick it in the drum if possible.

3. Snare Top - Well I say that snare top is important, but if I'm being real...

4. Snare Bottom - I've never recorded just the bottom without recording the top, but I feel like with OH methods that have a mic looking straight at the snare (like most of my favorites), maybe the bottom's more important than the top. It's hard to get a really tight poppy snare without a bottom mic. I like a pencil condenser here, but they can overload easily, so just be careful.

5. Kick Ambient - I usually face this one sort of looking at the floor at a 45 degree angle with a Figure 8 pattern to null out most of the kit. Where the close kick gets a balanced sound with a lot of attack, this tends to get a lot of fatness.

6. Hi-Hat - Usually I'm fighting the hi-hat because it's so loud in every other mic, but sometimes you just need this mic.

7. Close Tom Mics - I honestly think they aren't necessary in most music w/ the OH methods I use and even when I do use them, they're usually gated, but sometimes, you need the toms to hit people in the face. I usually use clip-ons because I can't be that bothered to consider them necessary.

8. Room Mics - I mean, if you need it to sound real, room mics are a better choice than adding fake reverb after the fact. Using two allows you to have a more stereo room image.

9. Cymbal Mics - This is where with 12 channels, I didn't really have the option to do this, but now that I have more, I can.
 
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#15
honeyiscool said:
I love having different mics, for sure. Like I said, I was tracking with 12, but now that my current interface has 16, I might try 16. But to me, the heart of the kit is the OH, the kick, then the snare. Everything else is just fun. To me, it goes like this in order of decreasing importance:

1. OH - I usually use a technique that has a pretty good full kit sound already, like Recorderman, Glyn Johns, M/S, or Blumlein method. I don't like techniques like XY or AB that require the use of close mics to sound good.

2. Kick - I close mic for my main one. I like to stick it in the drum if possible.

3. Snare Top - Well I say that snare top is important, but if I'm being real...

4. Snare Bottom - I've never recorded just the bottom without recording the top, but I feel like with OH methods that have a mic looking straight at the snare (like most of my favorites), maybe the bottom's more important than the top. It's hard to get a really tight poppy snare without a bottom mic. I like a pencil condenser here, but they can overload easily, so just be careful.

5. Kick Ambient - I usually face this one sort of looking at the floor at a 45 degree angle with a Figure 8 pattern to null out most of the kit. Where the close kick gets a balanced sound with a lot of attack, this tends to get a lot of fatness.

6. Hi-Hat - Usually I'm fighting the hi-hat because it's so loud in every other mic, but sometimes you just need this mic.

7. Close Tom Mics - I honestly think they aren't necessary in most music w/ the OH methods I use and even when I do use them, they're usually gated, but sometimes, you need the toms to hit people in the face. I usually use clip-ons because I can't be that bothered to consider them necessary.

8. Room Mics - I mean, if you need it to sound real, room mics are a better choice than adding fake reverb after the fact. Using two allows you to have a more stereo room image.

9. Cymbal Mics - This is where with 12 channels, I didn't really have the option to do this, but now that I have more, I can.
Click to expand...

Pretty much what IIdi, but I put triggers on as well. I've been working with the "knee mic" lately. Haven't gotten it completely figured out yet, but when it works it's pretty good. Put an omni near the drummers knee. Takes some time to get the kick/snare/Tom balance right: small movements make a big difference. It doesn't "see" any of the heads, so it is getting more of the shell resonance.

Some to most of the 16 channels won't get used in the mix, but if you've got the mics and inputs, it doesn't hurt to put them up. Mix wise, I start with the kick and overheads. Then I add others only if necessary. A lot of times the snare much us just used to bring it back to the center of the mix as it is off-center in the OH.
 
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