Dunlop Flats Out, What Now?

[Mastermold]

Have you experienced a problem with those?

Yes twice. That “sitar” effect. First time was on a new set, affecting the G string. Couldn’t figure out why it was doing that (hadn’t seen the TB threads on it yet) so I just swapped out the whole set for a new set of Chromes and they’ve been on that bass since. This was about 5 years now I think. Second time it happened on a D string on a bass that had been wearing a 760FL set for a few years. One day the “sitar” thing started on that string so I eventually swapped out the LaBellas for GHS Precision flats (custom set) and have been happy with them since.

I don’t know what causes the sitar problem. I’ve got two other basses that have each been wearing 760FL flats for about 10 years now and both sets still sound great, so maybe it’s just bad luck that I got two bad strings.

 

[Grinderman]

Yes twice. That “sitar” effect. First time was on a new set, affecting the G string. Couldn’t figure out why it was doing that (hadn’t seen the TB threads on it yet) so I just swapped out the whole set for a new set of Chromes and they’ve been on that bass since. This was about 5 years now I think. Second time it happened on a D string on a bass that had been wearing a 760FL set for a few years. One day the “sitar” thing started on that string so I eventually swapped out the LaBellas for GHS Precision flats (custom set) and have been happy with them since.

I don’t know what causes the sitar problem. I’ve got two other basses that have each been wearing 760FL flats for about 10 years now and both sets still sound great, so maybe it’s just bad luck that I got two bad strings.

I've seen people here refer to this sitar effect and I've had it happen with an A string on my jazz bass about a year or so ago. When it happened I realized that the A string was touching the intonation spring for the corresponding bridge saddle (Fender '60s vintage type bridge). The vibration of the string, in incidental contact with the spring, made the spring vibrate too, which has its own tone or sound. The combined sound of the vibrations was like that from a sitar.

After I made just enough adjustments to the spring and the A string so the two did not contact to create sympathetic vibrations the sitar effect stopped.

 

[LushPuppy]

I’ve definitely had more issues with La Bella than Dunlop flats, but when they’re good they are great, especially for the old school thing. I’d go with the 760FL if you liked the feel of the 45 Dunlops.

 

[Mastermold]

I've seen people here refer to this sitar effect and I've had it happen with an A string on my jazz bass about a year or so ago. When it happened I realized that the A string was touching the intonation spring for the corresponding bridge saddle (Fender '60s vintage type bridge). The vibration of the string, in incidental contact with the spring, made the spring vibrate too, which has its own tone or sound. The combined sound of the vibrations was like that from a sitar.

After I made just enough adjustments to the spring and the A string so the two did not contact to create sympathetic vibrations the sitar effect stopped.

I couldn’t figure out why it was happening to mine. After restringing and readjusting the set up didn’t work I eventually gave up. Thankfully it didn’t happen to the second set for a few years so I at least got my money’s worth from the string before it went wonky.

 

[Grinderman]

I couldn’t figure out why it was happening to mine. After restringing and readjusting the set up didn’t work I eventually gave up. Thankfully it didn’t happen to the second set for a few years so I at least got my money’s worth from the string before it went wonky.

What type of bridge was it?


It seems this is a thing that can happen with Fender vintage style steel bent plate bridges with spiral/threaded saddles.

Jasper Mortier, in this video, believes it was, in his case with his '65 P, due to the way the original bridge pre-CBS Fender bridges were made was the culprit. Fender apparently tweaked the design of these bridges in the late '60s. The new/er vintage style Fender bridges we see made now and recently apparently followed the late '60 revised design. He thinks switching to the revised version solved his sitar problem.

What i suspect is these bridge, even the newer revised versions, can inadvertently be part of the cause for this sitar sound. Being aware, and keeping the string, at the break angle between the witness point and ball end anchor points, from unfortunately touching the intonation screws is simple solution. I believe it's the treading on the saddles that make this unfortunate incidental contact between strings and intonation springs possible and more likely, albeit random.



"How to cure 'sitar' noises and contact noises with mid 60's Fender Bass bridges without losing the basic character of the vintage instrument."

 

[Grinderman]

Case in point: Here's my Jazz bass, the one that I've had the sitar sound from the A string

Notice how extremely close this A string comes to the corresponding intonation screw as the string breaks down and back to the tail of the bridge.

If I push that string over to the right one more notch on the saddle threads I get the sitar... literally just did it.



Here's the A string, in the sitar position, to illustrate. It's very easy to have happen and not immediately realize, if you're not already aware what can happen.

 

[GIBrat51]

Looking into further into opinions about Fender 9050 flats I see a fairly broad consensus that people like these strings for Jazz basses particularly. I'll be sure to try them on mine.

However, I haven't seen as much that suggests to me that Fender 9050 flats are as good with P basses which leaves me unresolved about what to get for mine. I definitely want flats for my Nash PB-63 and possibly for my PB-58. The later currently has Dunlop nickel rounds 45-105 (not SB). I'm not positively certain I want to switch to flats on that bass but I am definitely considering it.

I feel fairly sure now that Chromes are completely out of the running. I'm more likely to chose LaBella 760FL flats for my P bass/es but I am still open to suggestions.

I had Fender 9050L's on my '78 P-Bass (with the foam mute in the bridge cover) for several years. They are most definitely wonderful flats, and they would be on there still, but for one thing. I want my P-Bass to sound like I'm playing it in the late '50s-early '60s with factory flats, and the current Fender flats - even with the mute - are just a little too "modern flats" sounding for that. The La Bellas were just too thumpy - especially with the mute. GHs Precision Flats (made by people who made Fender's original Squier Flats) give me exactly the sound I'm looking for...
In any case; if you are new to flats, the 9050's are a most excellent place to start. I'm still using them on a couple of my other basses - a '16 Eastwood Magnum, and one of my '98 MIK Danelectro DC59 Pros - and I still like them very much...

 

[Grinderman]

My first set of 9050L flats arrived today. I considered putting on my Jazz bass but I opted to put them on my Nash P bass instead. I have to say I like these strings. I like how they sound and feel, better than the Dunlops 45-105 flats. One thing that stands out to me is the tone of the D and G strings of this set; deep and rich, not so twangy.

Plus, not problems with intonation at all! I'm going to get a set for my JB next.

Meanwhile, since Dunlop has no stainless flats in 45-105 available that they can be sure are good to replace all the bad ones I received they're now sending me a second round of replacements but time 40-100 instead.

This will give me a chance to compare them to the Fender 9050 flats.

 

[Grinderman]

I had Fender 9050L's on my '78 P-Bass (with the foam mute in the bridge cover) for several years. They are most definitely wonderful flats, and they would be on there still, but for one thing. I want my P-Bass to sound like I'm playing it in the late '50s-early '60s with factory flats, and the current Fender flats - even with the mute - are just a little too "modern flats" sounding for that. The La Bellas were just too thumpy - especially with the mute. GHs Precision Flats (made by people who made Fender's original Squier Flats) give me exactly the sound I'm looking for...
In any case; if you are new to flats, the 9050's are a most excellent place to start. I'm still using them on a couple of my other basses - a '16 Eastwood Magnum, and one of my '98 MIK Danelectro DC59 Pros - and I still like them very much...

That's the Eastwood based on the Ovation Magnum basses that Jah Wobble and Kim Gordon used, right? Eastwood makes some very interesting stuff. That tenor they make... the one Warren Ellis plays... and I think Lee Ranaldo too? Also very cool.

 

[michael_t]

Meanwhile, since Dunlop has no stainless flats in 45-105 available that they can be sure are good to replace all the bad ones I received they're now sending me a second round of replacements but time 40-100 instead.

Earlier this year I was debating back and forth between rounds and flats for my P bass. I did decide NPS rounds would be more practical and useful for me, so ended up with DR Nickel Lo-Riders, which I'm very happy with so far.

The flats I was considering happen to be the Dunlop 40-100. I'd be interested to know if they have the same intonation issue as the 45-105 set.

 

[Grinderman]

Earlier this year I was debating back and forth between rounds and flats for my P bass. I did decide NPS rounds would be more practical and useful for me, so ended up with DR Nickel Lo-Riders, which I'm very happy with so far.

The flats I was considering happen to be the Dunlop 40-100. I'd be interested to know if they have the same intonation issue as the 45-105 set.

I've decided positively that I like flats on my Nash PB more than rounds.

I like Dunlop steel nickel rounds on my other P that's more like a '58 spec (swamp ash body, 1-pc maple C width neck, Klein Epic '58 pickups, .1uf cap) but I want to try flats on that one too. That could result in a dilemma that I can't afford to solve by having two of the same bass.

As far as the intonation problem is concerned with the Dunlop 45 flats, I suspect the underlying cause is their core wire. The core wire for the Dunlop 40 flats isn't the same... or at least I'm reasonably sure it isn't... though I am interested to find out for sure too.

 

[Mastermold]

What type of bridge was it?


It seems this is a thing that can happen with Fender vintage style steel bent plate bridges with spiral/threaded saddles.

Jasper Mortier, in this video, believes it was, in his case with his '65 P, due to the way the original bridge pre-CBS Fender bridges were made was the culprit. Fender apparently tweaked the design of these bridges in the late '60s. The new/er vintage style Fender bridges we see made now and recently apparently followed the late '60 revised design. He thinks switching to the revised version solved his sitar problem.

What i suspect is these bridge, even the newer revised versions, can inadvertently be part of the cause for this sitar sound. Being aware, and keeping the string, at the break angle between the witness point and ball end anchor points, from unfortunately touching the intonation screws is simple solution. I believe it's the treading on the saddles that make this unfortunate incidental contact between strings and intonation springs possible and more likely, albeit random.



"How to cure 'sitar' noises and contact noises with mid 60's Fender Bass bridges without losing the basic character of the vintage instrument."

Well this might be it then as both basses in my case we’re older (1964) Fenders. Cool!

 

[Grinderman]

Well this might be it then as both basses in my case we’re older (1964) Fenders. Cool!

It's probably also dependent on string brand, the thickness and topology of the wind and weave at the string end looping, and how individual string ends orient in that area under tension.

If the string happens to be fat enough and wants to be turned in a way that put it closer to the intonation spring that could make contact between the two and resulting sympathetic vibrations more likely. I believe there's probably a good amount of randomness possible in this regard.

 

[michael_t]

It's probably also dependent on string brand, the thickness and topology of the wind and weave at the string end looping, and how individual string ends orient in that area under tension.

If the string happens to be fat enough and wants to be turned in a way that put it closer to the intonation spring that could make contact between the two and resulting sympathetic vibrations more likely. I believe there's probably a good amount of randomness possible in this regard.

It's interesting to note La Bella flats don't have silk at the ball end like a lot of flats do, and their "weave at the string end looping" is rather messy compared to, let's say, GHS Precision Flats, which also don't have silk at the ball end.

 

[Grinderman]

It's interesting to note La Bella flats don't have silk at the ball end like a lot of flats do, and their "weave at the string end looping" is rather messy compared to, let's say, GHS Precision Flats, which also don't have silk at the ball end.

That all the more figures then as far as Le Bellas and the sitar effect Mastermold had happen with those strings.

The strings I had on my Jazz bass when I had the A string sitar thing happen, I think they were Dunlop nickel rounds at that time too, didn't/don't have silks on the ball ends either. No silks on the ball ends means direct metal string to metal spring contact is possible which can cause this sitar effect we're talking about.

 

[michael_t]

That all the more figures then as far as Le Bellas and the sitar effect Mastermold had happen with those strings.

Here's what I'm talking about...

 

[Grinderman]

Here's what I'm talking about...

View attachment 4657297

I see and that brings to mind illustrates another aspect or factor; how tightly compressed the intonations springs are.

That La Bella A string in that image looks like it could be touching the associated intonation spring; however, the spring appears to be too compressed to freely vibrate. The compression mutes the spring.

When the springs are looser, as they are on the bridge of my Jazz bass, they are free to vibrate when a string makes contact.

 

[GIBrat51]

That's the Eastwood based on the Ovation Magnum basses that Jah Wobble and Kim Gordon used, right? Eastwood makes some very interesting stuff. That tenor they make... the one Warren Ellis plays... and I think Lee Ranaldo too? Also very cool.

Yes, you are correct. Eastwood only made them for a short time, and I don't think there are many of them around. There are even fewer leftys - which mine is. The scale and the body shape are the only Ovation Magnum 1 thing about it. I've always wanted a real one, but... Ovation never made leftys. So, this is as close as I can come. It's a decent bass (for the money); feels, plays, and sounds good; mine balances OK - for me; but, it's not really anything to write home about. However... I guess there's enough interest in them, that Eastwood is bringing them back. I see that the new ones will have a pickup "frame" like the original Ovations - but, they say it won't be aluminum. Will they make any leftys? Who knows...?

 

[oren]

Looking into further into opinions about Fender 9050 flats I see a fairly broad consensus that people like these strings for Jazz basses particularly. I'll be sure to try them on mine.

However, I haven't seen as much that suggests to me that Fender 9050 flats are as good with P basses which leaves me unresolved about what to get for mine. I definitely want flats for my Nash PB-63 and possibly for my PB-58. The later currently has Dunlop nickel rounds 45-105 (not SB). I'm not positively certain I want to switch to flats on that bass but I am definitely considering it.

I feel fairly sure now that Chromes are completely out of the running. I'm more likely to chose LaBella 760FL flats for my P bass/es but I am still open to suggestions.

i’ve got 9050 MLs on a PJ and like them a lot. I didn’t find them overly bright to start, though they definitely mellowed a little after some playing. I also didn’t find them sticky when new, though I did have that experience with Chromes.

 

[Grinderman]

i’ve got 9050 MLs on a PJ and like them a lot. I didn’t find them overly bright to start, though they definitely mellowed a little after some playing. I also didn’t find them sticky when new, though I did have that experience with Chromes.

I wiped the 9050 flats down with alcohol before putting them on. I think I do that as a regular practice with all new flats to try to avoid possible stickiness from residue of production.