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Eden WT1000 vs. "regular" Power Amp

#22
kringle77 said:
That's the question we are asking. You are an engineer. Could you please explain what we are hearing? There shouldn't be a difference, but there is.
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In actuality there isn't a difference when using identical preamps. Sensitivities must be matched for any comparison of course.

In the case of some of the class AB bass amps I have designed, the power amps were in fact identical to pro audio amps I had designed. Nobody ever claimed they sounded differently.
 
#23
I did a bunch of gain matched AB testing and found that the crest CA6 and qsc plx sounded identical to each other. The eden sounded totally different. I always figured the eden was "less perfect" but in a way that I'm used to after playing similar amps for so many years.
 
#24
I have directly compared the eden power amp to a carvin dc3800lx, power sections the gentler magellan, tech 21 vt bass, quilter, mesa d800, carvin b2000, hartke lh1000, mesa titan, mesa walkabout,....a few others, all in the same day.

The class ab amps all had much better low/low mid punch and control, with a more natural attack up top. The carvins, having class ab amps with smps were second place. Class D with smps just sounded like toys in comparison. All were pushed by an svp-cl. It was Apple's to Apple's.

There shouldn't be a difference but, there is. Even the class ab amps were different. The eden does seem to have some kind of high pass that is different than the other class ab amps. I was just hoping someone would have an explanation. I probably should have kept the lh1000 as a power amp. It is easily the most powerful, but wrenching bass head there is, no matter what other amps ratings are.

I'd like to find a Class ab toriodal power amp that is around 800 watts per side, under 30lbs, that maybe could even so 2 ohm loads. Sometimes I prefer to use 3 small 8 ohm cabs instead of one 100lb cab.
 
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#25
pickles said:
I did a bunch of gain matched AB testing and found that the crest CA6 and qsc plx sounded identical to each other. The eden sounded totally different. I always figured the eden was "less perfect" but in a way that I'm used to after playing similar amps for so many years.
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In the specific case of the Eden, assuming it uses the same power amp topology as the WT-500, there is a pretty neat trick that is used in the driver stage for current limiting under short circuit and very low impedance loads (somewhat similar to what QSC used in the old 1200, 1400, 1700 and USA series) that may, if desired by the designer, serve to color the response favorably under high drive conditions. In the QSC power amps I know the threshold is set high enough to avoid this.
 
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#26
kringle77 said:
I have directly compared the eden power amp to a carvin dc3800lx, power sections the gentler magellan, tech 21 vt bass, quilter, mesa d800, carvin b2000, hartke lh1000, mesa titan, mesa walkabout,....a few others, all in the same day.

The class ab amps all had much better low/low mid punch and control, with a more natural attack up top. The carvins, having class ab amps with smps were second place. Class D with smps just sounded like toys in comparison. All were pushed by an svp-cl. It was Apple's to Apple's.

There shouldn't be a difference but, there is. Even the class ab amps were different. The eden does seem to have some kind of high pass that is different than the other class ab amps. I was just hoping someone would have an explanation. I probably should have kept the lh1000 as a power amp. It is easily the most powerful, but wrenching bass head there is, no matter what other amps ratings are.

I'd like to find a Class ab toriodal power amp that is around 800 watts per side, under 30lbs, that maybe could even so 2 ohm loads. Sometimes I prefer to use 3 small 8 ohm cabs instead of one 100lb cab.
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So when did ANYBODY in this thread bring up class D? The question was about differences in class AB amps...
 
#27
agedhorse said:
So when did ANYBODY in this thread bring up class D? The question was about differences in class AB amps...
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I brought it up to point out that several amps, some of different design were compared directly next to each other, gain matched, same preamp, etc. I was trying to show fairness. And, there was a difference between the ab amps. They all sounded good, but the eden did have a more focused bottom and slightly clearer top, which I was thinking, is due to some different hpf. This isn't an arguement as much as a science experiment.
 
#30
Maybe you're hearing the difference in damping factors between the various power amps? I understand that major differences could be audible but how major and what the difference would sound like are unknown to me. Also different HPFs and LPFs should be audible. Maybe it's one factor or some combination that just sounds "right" to you.
 
#31
bobcruz said:
Maybe you're hearing the difference in damping factors between the various power amps? I understand that major differences could be audible but how major and what the difference would sound like are unknown to me. Also different HPFs and LPFs should be audible. Maybe it's one factor or some combination that just sounds "right" to you.
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That sounds plausible. Very.
 
#32
bobcruz said:
Maybe you're hearing the difference in damping factors between the various power amps? I understand that major differences could be audible but how major and what the difference would sound like are unknown to me. Also different HPFs and LPFs should be audible. Maybe it's one factor or some combination that just sounds "right" to you.
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The damping factor should be pretty similar across all of these amps being discussed. Anything over 100 or so and the difference will be totally insignificant compared with the external factors related to system damping.
 
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#33
boogiebass said:
The Eden 1000 will be less muffled sounding in a rig than one of their integrated amps since most of that Eden coloration comes from the pre. But if you like the Eden "color," the EA won't have it, of course. You know this already, I assume. You're right: not everyone wants clarity, that's why you hear the complaint of "sterile." If you want the clarity that an EA integrated amp can give you, wait for the iamp800.

You can do way better in a separate power amp than the Eden 1000. Stewart, for example. Lighter and way more powerful. The 2.1, which I recently purchased, is dual mono, puts out 2100 watts mono-bridged into 4 ohms and weighs 17 lbs. $799 new. Clean as a whistle. And no, it's not "voiced" for the Eden tone, either! Thankfully.

Lastly, I've owned a lot of Eden gear and have just about sold it all. At one time, I had four Eden cabs and two Eden amps. While I thought it sounded sorta OK with passive Fenders and the like, I really disliked the muffled, mid-pumped sound with my active, extended range instruments. I think Eden is a good choice (it's certainly reliable) if you're in love with the sound but it's a very poor choice if clarity is anywhere on your list of tone priorities.
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Wow thanks very helpful. I'm reading this because I've been looking into Eden equipment. I had a little experience with their stuff and thought it sounded good but reading this (I am a clarity fanatic) has encouraged me to keep looking. I'll still give it a try when I'm closer to making a purchase, but I'll keep your comments in mind. I love LOW end with clear, decipherable notes without brassy highs. Info like this is why I love TalkBass!
 
#35
Great thread and very relevant to me. I've played a ton of heads, have juggled a few, and my little Eden time traveler is by far my favorite of the bunch. In a search for more power to push super cabs (like a 15/6/1) I tried the Genzler Magellan when it came out. Plenty more volume, as the Eden gets a little too grindy for me when it's pushed, but it lacked the fullness the Eden had in every cab I owned. I thought I could get the best of both worlds by buying an old-but-still-9-years-newer-than-the-time-traveler 2012 wt1205 last summer to get the Eden tone with a huge bridged power section, but even that fell short. Experimenting with all of these different power sections has left me confused as a student of electrical engineering, as there shouldn't be a signficant difference, yet I still hear/feel something. I don't know what the magic is of the old Eden power amps but I'd sure like to find out.
 
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#36
Zombie thread!

I recently picked up a WT-1000 used from GC. It shipped out today, so I should have it early next week. Once I get it, I'll post my impressions of this formidable beast.

I plan on pairing it with my Aguilar DB680, or perhaps my Eden Navigator, running through either my Barefaced Super Twin T, or Bergantino HT-322 (or both!).
 
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#37
I got my WT-1000 from GC today, and, well...about what I figured. It's not working, of course. There is very little volume coming out no matter how I run it (stereo/mono/bridged), and it is distorted. I tried another preamp in front of it just to confirm it wasn't the pre, and it's the same thing.

So...do I just return it, or try to get it repaired? I got it from GC for $275, plus $30 shipping.
 
#38
RGerhart said:
I got my WT-1000 from GC today, and, well...about what I figured. It's not working, of course. There is very little volume coming out no matter how I run it (stereo/mono/bridged), and it is distorted. I tried another preamp in front of it just to confirm it wasn't the pre, and it's the same thing.

So...do I just return it, or try to get it repaired? I got it from GC for $275, plus $30 shipping.
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You might gag over the cost of repair...
 
#39
RGerhart said:
I got my WT-1000 from GC today, and, well...about what I figured. It's not working, of course. There is very little volume coming out no matter how I run it (stereo/mono/bridged), and it is distorted. I tried another preamp in front of it just to confirm it wasn't the pre, and it's the same thing.

So...do I just return it, or try to get it repaired? I got it from GC for $275, plus $30 shipping.
Click to expand...
Tough call. It's now a project. Do you know someone who works on Class AB power amps? Good news if it hasn't released the magic smoke as that may suggest the output transistors are okay, at least not shorted. Don't think the other parts are as difficult to source, but am open to correction.
 
#40
Hey there 12bass. I just happened upon this thread as I was looking for a used WT1000. I have a WT550 that presented distortion and maybe some similar issues and I found someone that suggested spraying contact cleaner on the effects loop jacks on the inside of the amp. I popped the lid and sprayed the jacks and I’d also spray the contacts on the output jacks. It completely restored my head and I haven’t had an issue since. I say it’s worth a try. Hope it helps.
 

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