El Whappo Jr. Ordered

[GreyBeard]

Just ordered a El Whappo Jr. I've been using a SWR Triad for about 2 yrs now and all in all it is a great full range speaker. I chose the Jr over the Standard El Whappo because it is close enough to the size of my Triad to fit it it's road case. (no other reason). I'll let you know all how the 2 stack up when it comes in next wk.

 

[JJBACOOMBA]

Did ya get it yet. I am looking into getting the el whappo or the shroeder 310212. The jr also looks interesting.

 

[GreyBeard]

It won't be here until tue. I've never played through either the AG or the Shroeder but from what I've read I think they are a sort of apples and orange type of deal. The AG is designed to be like a big studio monitor like an Acme B4. The big difference being the Acme is 96db and the AG is 102db. The Shroeder (I think and Shroeder owners please correct me if I'm wrong) is sort of a maximum volume per size and weight sort of cab, like an 8x10 volume in a 4x10 size and weight.

 

[DaveAceofBass]

You're gonna love it! I love mine!

 

[James Hart]

Congrats!

I recently picked up an El Whappo and it's the best my rig has ever sounded.

 

[tbone0813]

I just received my Whappo Jr yesterday. You will not be disappointed. It's an absolutely amazing cab. I was a little concerned at first when I ordered it because they no longer have the mid & high attenuators, but after receving it & playing through it with my Skjold I don't miss them at all.

 

[alexclaber]

I was a little concerned at first when I ordered it because they no longer have the mid & high attenuators...

You're much better off without the mid/high attenuators that were fitted to the earlier AccuGroove cabs, because they were simple rheostats instead of L-pads. This means that as the attenuation is increased so the impedance in that frequency band increases, so the crossover point decreases, thus putting lower frequencies than intended through your mid/high drivers. Not good.

I've yet to hear a bad review of the Whappo Jr - seems that's one cab where AG's somewhat haphazard R&D approach has struck seriously lucky!

Alex

 

[DaveAceofBass]

You're much better off without the mid/high attenuators that were fitted to the earlier AccuGroove cabs, because they were simple rheostats instead of L-pads. This means that as the attenuation is increased so the impedance in that frequency band increases, so the crossover point decreases, thus putting lower frequencies than intended through your mid/high drivers. Not good.

I've yet to hear a bad review of the Whappo Jr - seems that's one cab where AG's somewhat haphazard R&D approach has struck seriously lucky!

Alex

This wouldn't happen if the attenuators are all the way up, right? Why is that so bad that the crossover point changes? My cab has the attenuators, but I leave them wide open, no attenuation necessary IMO.

 

[alexclaber]

This wouldn't happen if the attenuators are all the way up, right?

No it would be fine with the attenuators all the way up. I remember on the old AccuGroove site they made a selling point of their use of heavy duty rheostats rather than cheaper generic L-pads - unfortunately their apparent lack of electrical understanding missed the whole point of an L-pad, which is to maintain a constant impedance regardless of the attenuation.

Why is that so bad that the crossover point changes?

Because the power handing of the midrange driver and tweeters drastically reduces as you go below their recommended frequency band. Combine that with the single order crossover which lets far more low frequencies through than is ideal (which thus requires two tweeters to handle the power) and you could end up blowing the drivers.

Alex

 

[James Hart]

Alex,

Have you ever actually 'heard' any of the Accugroove line?
Did you bare witness to the research and developement methods used?
You seem to be the single voice to ALWAYS puts the line down when ever they are mentioned.

Now we all know published specs on cabs and amps all follow their own set of rules it seems.... that is why I judge my gear with my hands, ears, eyes and head (not specifically in that order)...

for ME and MY tone, the El Whappo is THE BEST cabinet on the market... bar none. No amount of attempted debunking or personal "opinion" you interject will ever sway that.

My El Whappo simply works BEST for me.

I've heard your stuff on myspace... your tone is not even close to one I'd consider using. That is why it's a great thing to have all the choices we do.

 

[hexbass]

I liked my first one so much, I got another

 

[Bassist30]

No it would be fine with the attenuators all the way up. I remember on the old AccuGroove site they made a selling point of their use of heavy duty rheostats rather than cheaper generic L-pads - unfortunately their apparent lack of electrical understanding missed the whole point of an L-pad, which is to maintain a constant impedance regardless of the attenuation.



Because the power handing of the midrange driver and tweeters drastically reduces as you go below their recommended frequency band. Combine that with the single order crossover which lets far more low frequencies through than is ideal (which thus requires two tweeters to handle the power) and you could end up blowing the drivers.

Alex

I emailed them regarding the l pad. They stated there is no
problem. They tested and confirmed that being
they were completely passive, unlike
what other companies use, so you could only take away from the volume.
Therefore it does not affect the impedance or crossover points & did
not color the sound.

 

[oddio]

Congrats!

I recently picked up an El Whappo and it's the best my rig has ever sounded.

Now that's what I'm talking about!

 

[alexclaber]

Have you ever actually 'heard' any of the Accugroove line?
Did you bare witness to the research and developement methods used?
You seem to be the single voice to ALWAYS puts the line down when ever they are mentioned.

Now we all know published specs on cabs and amps all follow their own set of rules it seems.... that is why I judge my gear with my hands, ears, eyes and head (not specifically in that order)...

I don't know if you misread my posts, but you seem to have missed that I do not put down either the tone or the effectiveness of the sound of AccuGroove's cabs.

All I have attempted to do in my posts on this subject, just as I do in my other posts, is to bring some clarity and objectiveness to the matter, particularly with regarding to the hyberbole which is sometimes used by manufacturers.

Some time ago I was very interested in purchasing a Whappo Jr and communicated directly with Mark regarding the specs, as being the other side of the pond it was rather difficult to find these cabs to try out, and the specs and people's reviews are all I had to go on. Mark assured me that the specs were 100% accurate and that I could bet my B string on them. So I started saving. Then comes out the AccuSwitch debacle, which I certainly don't want to discuss anymore! And on the back of that, a number of knowledgeable people had a look at these cabs' internals, ran various tests and scrutinised the specs.

Now you may point out that other manufacturers, Eden & SWR for instance, also quote preposterous specs, but the difference with AccuGroove is that they tied these specs in with claims of groundbreaking (and patent-pending) technology which would allegedly support these specs and were quite active on various forums in backing up their claims.

Once you find out that the amazing crossovers with 1000W power handling and military build quality are no more than a capacitor on each driver, that the rheostats mess with the impedance and the crossover points, and the the AS does nothing for impedance and just exhibits a lack of electronic understanding, that the cabinet tuning totally refutes the frequency response claims, that the speakers are near standard or off the shelf Eminence despite claims of testing >500 drivers from around the world, then you simply want to make sure that prospective purchasers do so based on the sound alone and not the hyperbole.

And as we have heard, many players loves the sound, which is great!

But I wouldn't want someone to splash out that much cash based on reading the specs and thinking these are the most accurate sounding cabs ever, because they could be disappointed.

for ME and MY tone, the El Whappo is THE BEST cabinet on the market... bar none. No amount of attempted debunking or personal "opinion" you interject will ever sway that.

My El Whappo simply works BEST for me.

That's great for you. Though I would point out that you said the same about Schroeders not so long ago.

I've heard your stuff on myspace... your tone is not even close to one I'd consider using. That is why it's a great thing to have all the choices we do.

Indeed - variety is the spice of life. Of course, all those sounds were recorded direct from my SWR Grand Prix, so my cabinet choice is irrelevant!

I liked my first one so much, I got another

It's comments like this that are worth a thousand of AccuGroove's own claims - the cabs, and the Whappo Jr in particular, obviously sound great, so why is such marketing hyperbole needed?!

I emailed them regarding the l pad. They stated there is no
problem. They tested and confirmed that being
they were completely passive, unlike
what other companies use, so you could only take away from the volume.
Therefore it does not affect the impedance or crossover points & did
not color the sound.

Once again, AccuGroove have done their cabs a disservice.

I'll take this a point at a time.

They tested and confirmed that being
they were completely passive, unlike
what other companies use, so you could only take away from the volume.

So rheostats are passive - yes we know that. But AG are now claiming that other companies' L-pads are not passive - what are they talking about?! The difference between the single rheostat as used by AG and an L-pad is that the L-pad uses two rheostats, one in parallel and one in series with the speaker, to maintain constant impedance. These are all passive devices. Are they suggesting that other companies attenuators also take away from the tone or something?

Therefore it does not affect the impedance or crossover points...

So they're claiming that a single rheostat in series with a driver does not change impedance - I'd like to see proof of that because on an electrical engineering basis it's about as likely as the old AS working. And if it doesn't change the impedance, how does a single rheostat attenuate a driver?

Unless I see proof to the contrary we have to assume that the impedance does change as the rheostat is introduced into the circuit. Increase the impedance of the circuit and the crossover point has to change - it's inevitable.

& did not color the sound

This is the most laughable claim - what does an attenuator do if not colour the sound?!! That's the whole point!

Alex

 

[Spector_Ray]

Counsel, your witness.

 

[GreyBeard]

Good Grief... To be honest I kinda figured they would have to use a simple cap on the drivers in order to maintain efficiency. I never figured the accuswitch to be anything but a joke as even I understand that you can't make a 4 ohm cab into an 8 without adding an 8 ohm resister in series somewhere and eating up a bunch of power. I been chasing a smaller full range cab for years. The Triad comes pretty close, we'll see how it holds up next to a Wappo Jr.

 

[James Hart]

That's great for you. Though I would point out that you said the same about Schroeders not so long ago.

Yes, for a loud guitar based band or a 15+ piece dance band they cut through the densness better than anything I've used / heard. Killer little cabinets for sure. I continue to recommend them for those situations.

I play and exist in much looser and intimate settings where I need and want my full extended range produced.... there is nothing to slice through, I'm already out front. That's all that's really changed.

I've actually asked for history on Accugroove, falling in love with them tone wise and never buying into any previous dialog on them. I know about the switch, they pulled it from the line... it's done. But you say "were quite active on various forums", which? I too am active on at least half a dozen boards and news groups... I lurk at a few others too. I guess I missed the marketing push and public backlash (and so has google)

Someone splashing that much cash after just reading anyones specs isn't going to get what they are after... far too much other things can be read and weighed against each other.

your comment:

I've yet to hear a bad review of the Whappo Jr - seems that's one cab where AG's somewhat haphazard R&D approach has struck seriously lucky!

is really what set me off and you've answered me.

1.) you feel let down by accugroove
2.) you still haven't actually heard or played through them

the SWR Grand Prix is a great preamp. I did a lot of recording through one in the early 90s.

 

[BassIan]

Yes, for a loud guitar based band or a 15+ piece dance band they cut through the densness better than anything I've used / heard. Killer little cabinets for sure. I continue to recommend them for those situations.

I play and exist in much looser and intimate settings where I need and want my full extended range produced.... there is nothing to slice through, I'm already out front. That's all that's really changed.

I've actually asked for history on Accugroove, falling in love with them tone wise and never buying into any previous dialog on them. I know about the switch, they pulled it from the line... it's done. But you say "were quite active on various forums", which? I too am active on at least half a dozen boards and news groups... I lurk at a few others too. I guess I missed the marketing push and public backlash (and so has google)

Someone splashing that much cash after just reading anyones specs isn't going to get what they are after... far too much other things can be read and weighed against each other.

your comment:


is really what set me off and you've answered me.

1.) you feel let down by accugroove
2.) you still haven't actually heard or played through them

the SWR Grand Prix is a great preamp. I did a lot of recording through one in the early 90s.

You need to understand something here, James. Alex is not arguing about SOUND or how it works for him in a playing situation. He's talking about complete lack of fundamental electrical understanding. Accugroove has demonstrated ignorance of some of the most basic electrical principles, and to me (or anyone with any engineering or electrical knowledge), that's a massive turn-off. I'll walk away from that because it is simply NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO DEVELOP ANY PRODUCT. I will not support a business that does not consult the right bodies of information before prototyping and developing a product.

You also must know that I have tried and currently own an Accugroove El Whappo. I have been trying to sell it for the past six months and haven't used it once in that time since I took it apart and saw all of the factors that Alex has just written about. Rheostats instead of L-Pads, Accuswitch design, 1st order high-pass filters, and so forth. There are too many things wrong here, and I have openly cited these as issues before even though it devalues my cabinet that I'm trying to sell.

I'm glad it works for you and that these things don't bother you. I understand that these things don't bother everybody, but it seems people with significant personal investment in parallel fields do not like to see such disregard for basic (early high school, in most cases, latest would be second year electrical engineering courses around here) knowledge. It turns me completely off when a company makes these mistakes then flat out denies them making utterly idiotic claims to sway people back to their side.

Think about it from a scientific perspective for a minute and see why this sets my alarm off. I will repeat that neither Alex or I made any claims about the sound or usefulness of the cabinets. My gripes stand with the product development and severe lack of basic knowledge demonstrated by people who to this day make adverse claims about their products. What is the most surprising, though, is that in the face of many engineering and audio experts here with decades of experience, people still defend the engineering of this product. I like the sound of my Accugroove, but it doesn't make me feel good to use it because I know so little educated thought and knowledge went into it.

 

[GreyBeard]

You need to understand something here, James. Alex is not arguing about SOUND or how it works for him in a playing situation. He's talking about complete lack of fundamental electrical understanding. Accugroove has demonstrated ignorance of some of the most basic electrical principles, and to me (or anyone with any engineering or electrical knowledge), that's a massive turn-off. I'll walk away from that because it is simply NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO DEVELOP ANY PRODUCT. I will not support a business that does not consult the right bodies of information before prototyping and developing a product.

You also must know that I have tried and currently own an Accugroove El Whappo. I have been trying to sell it for the past six months and haven't used it once in that time since I took it apart and saw all of the factors that Alex has just written about. Rheostats instead of L-Pads, Accuswitch design, 1st order high-pass filters, and so forth. There are too many things wrong here, and I have openly cited these as issues before even though it devalues my cabinet that I'm trying to sell.

I'm glad it works for you and that these things don't bother you. I understand that these things don't bother everybody, but it seems people with significant personal investment in parallel fields do not like to see such disregard for basic (early high school, in most cases, latest would be second year electrical engineering courses around here) knowledge. It turns me completely off when a company makes these mistakes then flat out denies them making utterly idiotic claims to sway people back to their side.

Think about it from a scientific perspective for a minute and see why this sets my alarm off. I will repeat that neither Alex or I made any claims about the sound or usefulness of the cabinets. My gripes stand with the product development and severe lack of basic knowledge demonstrated by people who to this day make adverse claims about their products. What is the most surprising, though, is that in the face of many engineering and audio experts here with decades of experience, people still defend the engineering of this product. I like the sound of my Accugroove, but it doesn't make me feel good to use it because I know so little educated thought and knowledge went into it.

Why are you wanting to sell it?

 

[James Hart]

Think about it from a scientific perspective for a minute and see why this sets my alarm off. I will repeat that neither Alex or I made any claims about the sound or usefulness of the cabinets. My gripes stand with the product development and severe lack of basic knowledge demonstrated by people who to this day make adverse claims about their products. What is the most surprising, though, is that in the face of many engineering and audio experts here with decades of experience, people like you continue to defend such idiocy.

I defend what works... for me, simple as that.

A lot of the cats I look up to currently use them.
I've never heard of any failures
I love the tone...

that is ALL I'm saying. Science said my old Bagend cubes won't work because there was nowhere close to the internal space needed, Science said the Schroeders sacrifice lows to sound low...

you know what... they were both great rigs.

I'm content in the fact I sound LIVE like I do during studio playback.

and yes, I come from an Mech Engineering family and spent a decade in Drafting & Design of Military spec electrical circuits.