Double Bass Electric bassist making the switch to upright

[jackotheclown]

Hey guys, not sure where to post this so here goes.

I'm an electric player that is learning upright. I just had my first lesson. We were are working with the French Bow. I can't even hold the damn thing properly, it took nearly an hour to show me how to hold it and my hand just collapses and it's back to square one. It's all very overwhelming and I'm not sure what to practice, well I guess the first thing is learning how to hold the bow, then producing long tones on the open strings. After that, then what? I'm a jazz player on the electric and that's why I wanted to learn the upright but feel like I'm falling at the first hurdle. Any tips or pointers to set me in the right direction would be just great. Best.

- Jack

 

[Sam Dingle]

watch a ton of videos on youtube about proper bow hold. Try to take a video of your teacher and imiatate them. its a slow process but worth it.

 

[JayLaughlin]

My biggest tip: Have patience with yourself. You'll get to a point where the bow hold becomes more natural.

But, honestly, I've been playing for 3.5 years and still find things to improve in my bow hold.

 

[John Chambliss]

Practice in front of a mirror. Even learning how to hold the bass (as well as a bow), and how to stand/sit, is something in itself. Record yourself when you practice. Every day is a learning experience for me, and I've been wrestling with the double bass for about 10 years now after 35+ years on electric bass. Just wish I had started it earlier.

 

[jackotheclown]

Thanks chaps, how long would you recommend practicing with the bow (holding and long tones)..?

 

[Reiska]

...Obviously, don`t do it thru pain. If anything hurts, take a break and try to figure out why it does.

All this stuff will take time, DB is one of most physical instruments existing, patience and going slow is the key.

 

[unbrokenchain]

As often and as long as your schedule permits!
You aren't failing, it can be really challenging, especially at first. I started DB 12 years ago, started messing with the bow ~8 years ago and I still wrestle with a lot of the variables, some good days some bad days ya know. Getting the right technique imprinted so that you A: aren't hurting yourself long-term and B: are comfortable enough to do it for fairly long periods, are to me the most important fundamentals that will set you up for success. Check out a number of perspectives on bow holds, they vary quite a bit. Your posture (and that of your bass) will also affect how comfortable different holds are.

 

[Inky13]

Remember the scene in “The Matrix” where Neo is trying to jump to the next building? Someone watching says “Nobody does it the first time.” Arco is one of the more challenging things about upright. It’s a difficult bio-mechanical motion and is not mastered right away. Listen to your teacher, practice and have patience.
Welcome to the upright!

 

[BarfanyShart]

You'll never regret bowing whole-note scales. That's really the heart and soul of the thing that every other skill is based on - most importantly stamina and intonation. After that, you can play your jazz stuff pizzicato, which is what you're interested in anyway.

 

[Wasnex]

Hey guys, not sure where to post this so here goes.

I'm an electric player that is learning upright. I just had my first lesson. We were are working with the French Bow. I can't even hold the damn thing properly, it took nearly an hour to show me how to hold it and my hand just collapses and it's back to square one. It's all very overwhelming and I'm not sure what to practice, well I guess the first thing is learning how to hold the bow, then producing long tones on the open strings. After that, then what? I'm a jazz player on the electric and that's why I wanted to learn the upright but feel like I'm falling at the first hurdle. Any tips or pointers to set me in the right direction would be just great. Best.

- Jack

If you plan to play jazz it sounds like you may have the wrong teacher. I do think there is value in learning to bow, as playing arco forces you to really focus on intonation. But I also think it would be good to get you thumping around on the instrument a little bit. There are may important matters of technique regarding your fingering hand and plucking hand to work on in addition to how to hold the bow, plus you need to have a little bit of fun in order to maintain motivation to learn.

The key with the bow is to learn how to hold it lightly without clenching, and without throwing the bow across the room by accident. You probably need to develop new muscles that you have never really used before, and you also need to develop fine motor skills, so the muscles are not working against each other and forcing you to clench your hand. Eventually you will learn to use just enough strength to hold on to the bow; and that is all you really need. Your hand and wrist must be flexible and fluid, but you will also eventually learn how to draw strength and power from the core of your body instead of relying on your hand and forearm so much. It's a lot to take in, so approach it as if you were eating an elephant...I.E. take one bite at a time.

Probably the most common method book is Simandl. It's been quite awhile since I opened my Simandl book I. but I believe it will provide practice material that incrementally becomes more difficult. Nothing wrong if your instructor teaches out of a different method book, but your lesson should include written material of some sort so you have something to review and reference.

My assumption is you already understand theory and how to build walking bass lines, so at this point you really need to focus on upright bass technique more than anything else, until you develop a firm technical foundation and good habits.

I transitioned the other way and it was fairly natural to apply what I new about upright bass to electric. I even used Simandl fingering for many years before transitioning to one finger per fret on bass guitar. IMHO the more I honed my techniques on upright and bass guitar, the more my approach to each instrument diverged from the other. My belief is applying bass guitar technique to upright, especially the fingering hand, is a bad idea. If you plan to develop facility and endurance you must learn a proper hand shape that maintains a good arch.

 

[MikeDavis]

If you are interested in learning jazz and playing double bass and you’re in NYC, I can’t recommend Joe Solomon highly enough. Check out his article, the Art of the Slow Way. If it sounds like an approach you’re interested in, give him a call. I never left a lesson wondering what I should practice next.

 

[jackotheclown]

Thanks again for all the input. Think I'll order a copy of Simandl, I had it at college but played electric didn't really dig it. I wanted to get a classical double bass teacher for the technique as Wasnex said I already have good knowledge of jazz in theory and walk just fine on electric. Just to get the best technique/intonation I can, I thought classical cats would be the way to go. However, because I'm a total beginner and can't afford 100$ a week for a lesson, wanted to know what would get me off the ground.

On second thoughts, that article by Joe Solomon was great, I'd love to get in touch with him. Mike Davis, do you have his number? Could you PM me?

 

[David Potts]

I would suggest that there is so much to absorb when you start on Double Bass that you use a simpler French bow hold for a little while to do most of your practice. Suzuki students on violin begin with a more relaxed bow hold that has the end of the thumb on the outside of the silver ferrule. Later the thumb tip is simply moved to the corner between the end of the frog and the stick. The advantages are that the hand is still cupped and but more relaxed and open, the thumb is almost opposite where it will finally end up and the fingers are still spread the same way as they will be. The index finger and thumb still have the same working relationship and you can still draw the same sounds with the bow using long strokes while your LH gets going. Sure, do some short specific practice sessions with the "correct" bow hold. The only difference is that the bow hair, like violinists, will rest on the lower side of the hair if your wrist aligns nicely with your forearm (the wrist should not dip or pronate for best use IMO).

 

[equill]

I've just recently started with German bow, and spent the first few weeks fighting the instinct to hold it French-style.
It takes time to get the hang of it, but the reflexes will eventually bed in.

If you can, record yourself, as somebody else here suggested. My teacher can hear my progress, but I can't - it'd be nice to hear what he's hearing.

It's a slow process. Be patient with yourself.

 

[John Le Guyader]

After playing electric bass since grade school (I'm now 59), I decided 3 years ago to transition to upright. I put off playing arco for a while and then bit the bullet. I was shocked how little playing electric bass helped with learning to play upright. They are two totally different animals. But my upright work has certainly helped my electric bass playing. With a full time job, electric bass gigs, going to my beach place and family I don't practice nearly as much as I should. But I starting taking lessons 3 years ago and progress has been very, incremental with lots of plateaus that last a long while before I see my abilities progress. Learning to play upright is simply hard, and thems the facts. Learning to playing arco was equally difficult. I tried French grip and simply could NOT do it. So for me, I am a dedicated German grip guy. I actually use an Alsatian bow with a frog that looks like a smaller German grip that can also double for French grip, should I ever feel the urge to do it in the future. I had it made by VingoBow on eBay from China (about $350) and I love it, and it is well balanced for either German or French grip. I sold my student French bow with no regrets and bought a second Alsatian.

At first when learning arco my teacher was always asking me if I had enough rosin on, if I torked the hairs too tight, and to RELAX! I still get told to relax and not just for arco technique. Play in front of a mirror as suggested above to make sure you are bowing the right spot for the notes you are playing and for judging if you have good right hand technique. I am told by my teacher and others that adult learning on upright is slow and par for the course, but the more you practice the quicker the progress.

I feel that my arco is finally getting substantially past the screechy/scratchy stages, and that took about 2 years of work at the pace I am going. I still have lots more work on arco to do. Being able to reliably slur as written can be still very challenging for me depending on the piece and/or passage.

Playing pizz is so much more easy for me. I don't have any gigs that require me to play arco. I decided if I am going to play upright that I wanted to learn how to play arco properly so one day I might be able to feel confident enough to play out on arco. Right now I am not confident enough to play arco on gigs, just pizz. I am thankful I have an acoustic duo to play upright in with a guitarist doing acoustic blues in the Piedmont style. We play gigs at breweries and wineries in VA outside DC.

Learning to play upright is hard and takes time...practice, practice, practice...don't give up...and maybe try a German bow...German was significantly easier for me to learn than French. My hand and wrist just could not bend the way it should for French.

This is just my experience as an old man trying to learning new tricks...your experience may be different...I retire at the end of this year and plan to focus much more on my music, including spending more time continuing to learn how to play upright.

 

[equill]

I feel that my arco is finally getting substantially past the screechy/scratchy stages, and that took about 2 years of work at the pace I am going.

That's reassuring, as I'm still at that stage after 2-3 months and getting frustrated by it.
OTOH, I'm going to try to beat that record

 

[Wasnex]

After playing electric bass since grade school (I'm now 59), I decided 3 years ago to transition to upright. I put off playing arco for a while and then bit the bullet. I was shocked how little playing electric bass helped with learning to play upright. They are two totally different animals. But my upright work has certainly helped my electric bass playing. With a full time job, electric bass gigs, going to my beach place and family I don't practice nearly as much as I should. But I starting taking lessons 3 years ago and progress has been very, incremental with lots of plateaus that last a long while before I see my abilities progress. Learning to play upright is simply hard, and thems the facts. Learning to playing arco was equally difficult. I tried French grip and simply could NOT do it. So for me, I am a dedicated German grip guy. I actually use an Alsatian bow with a frog that looks like a smaller German grip that can also double for French grip, should I ever feel the urge to do it in the future. I had it made by VingoBow on eBay from China (about $350) and I love it, and it is well balanced for either German or French grip. I sold my student French bow with no regrets and bought a second Alsatian.

At first when learning arco my teacher was always asking me if I had enough rosin on, if I torked the hairs too tight, and to RELAX! I still get told to relax and not just for arco technique. Play in front of a mirror as suggested above to make sure you are bowing the right spot for the notes you are playing and for judging if you have good right hand technique. I am told by my teacher and others that adult learning on upright is slow and par for the course, but the more you practice the quicker the progress.

I feel that my arco is finally getting substantially past the screechy/scratchy stages, and that took about 2 years of work at the pace I am going. I still have lots more work on arco to do. Being able to reliably slur as written can be still very challenging for me depending on the piece and/or passage.

Playing pizz is so much more easy for me. I don't have any gigs that require me to play arco. I decided if I am going to play upright that I wanted to learn how to play arco properly so one day I might be able to feel confident enough to play out on arco. Right now I am not confident enough to play arco on gigs, just pizz. I am thankful I have an acoustic duo to play upright in with a guitarist doing acoustic blues in the Piedmont style. We play gigs at breweries and wineries in VA outside DC.

Learning to play upright is hard and takes time...practice, practice, practice...don't give up...and maybe try a German bow...German was significantly easier for me to learn than French. My hand and wrist just could not bend the way it should for French.

This is just my experience as an old man trying to learning new tricks...your experience may be different...I retire at the end of this year and plan to focus much more on my music, including spending more time continuing to learn how to play upright.

Nice!

I was originally a viola player. When I switched to upright I was given the choice of French or German bow. I tried both and initially settled on German. The reasons: my hand cramped with French and I found it was easier to play pizz with the German still hand. Also the transition back and forth between pizz and arco seemed much faster and easier with German.

Unfortunately what I found is that I had noticeably more dexterity with French bow playing arco, even after playing German exclusively for well over a year. For a time, I switched back an fourth depending upon the requirements of the music, but eventually I transitioned to exclusively French.

Regardless of my experience and the reasons I ultimately settled on French, there are plenty of bassists who can bow me under the table with a German bow.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

Regular short sessions will work wonders. Even 15 or 20 minutes a day to start, which will build up naturally. Keep it enjoyable and fun. Keep working with a teacher.

Classical bass is always in demand in community string orchestras. Once you play regularly with other string players you will advance faster and be more motivated than woodshedding alone.

Simandl is useful but boring. It will give you a guide as can all the other method books out there. Some are available free online, such as imslp.

Your teacher and playing regularly with others is the key.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

Simandl is free on imslp. Here’s a snap of the download page.

I take occasional lessons, even though I’ve played almost 5 decades. I record them on my phone using ‘voice memos’, as does my teacher when he gets a lesson or masterclass. I actually listen later and make notes in a book. I learned as a youth my teachers boss, the aged section principle, still took lessons from Eugene Cruft when in London. That stuck with me.

Lessons can also come in different forms. Conductors often teach a lot during rehearsal, a pro gets a lesson when he asks for advice at an audition. A section principle teaches his section during rehearsal.

 

[jackotheclown]

Thanks for all the input. I will probably get a physical copy of Simandl soon. I'm studying with Joe Solomon as recommended by Mike Davis. It's going well (just had 2 lessons) and I am very excited to be playing upright. Hopefully it won't take too long (although I'm fine if it does) before I can go to some sessions and walk a blues or two XD