Em7 scale?

[Bassist4Life]

Huh? a min7 chord will be formed as a tertian harmony over any scale that has the intervals [1,b3,5,b7] or any scale that has the enharmonics of those intervals. I don't know how it would be assumed that it must be dorian. Even in diatonic context the first scale you would assume it to originate from, all things being equal, would be aeolian since it is the implied to be the tonal centre for a minor "key". Even at that I think it would be making a big assumption just to think aeolian every time you hear a min7 chord.

Sorry if I confused things.

When I see a m7 chord in a jazz chart, it's usually part of a "two five" progression (of course there are many exceptions). I've used it as a simple way to find tonal centers. Functional harmony. Of course it depends on the context, but I was just trying to keep it simple.

I don't think you can look at a single chord like Em7 and know exactly how to analyze its function without context. Again, functional harmony. I was just offering my thought on what it might be.

Also, a tune that came to mind was "So What". Dm7 (Dorian) --> Em7 (Dorian).

See where I'm coming from? I'm not asking you to agree, but you can see what I'm saying, right?

Peace and Music,
Joe

 

[mutedeity]

Hmmm. I have no idea what the conventions about this are, just that when someone says Em scale, they typically mean E to E, with a flatted iii. So, when someone says Em7 scale, I just think they mean replace Eb with D. Still has 8 notes. This may not be proper, but that's what I would take it to mean if someone said it to me (and people do). My jazz piano teacher used the term that way (this was awhile back, though - and I have no proof that he was using proper terms, but he did teach a bunch of people).

But I see what you're saying. OTOH, if you can have a pentatonic blues scale, you could, I suppose have a tetratonic scale? My point though, is that it is doubtful that that was what was meant.

The way I see it, if a song is written in Em7, it doesn't use an Eb, it uses a D and that's what I need to keep in mind to keep from sounding sucky. No different than if someone said E7. I would expect the other chords in the song to avoid things like Ebmaj7 or Eb, etc.

Anyway, it's not uncommon for some to say their song is in Em7 (emin7) in an effort to communicate the notes that Jayarroz listed. When people are learning to improvise solos on sax or whatever, they're often taught that kind of terminology, and to use those notes while everyone else plays parts of Em7 and the bass walks 1, 3b, 4, 5, 7b). I think that's called the relative minor pentatonic scale, but frankly, I don't know anyone who uses those terms (except here on this board).

It may not be properly a scale, but if someone says Em7 scale, that's what I'd think they meant.

I think there are a few misconceptions that I should point out here, mainly for the benefit of those that might be confused by what you are saying. Firstly E minor is a seven tone scale. The octave is not an 8th tone. The octave is played when practising scales as a way of expressing the interval between the 7th and the tonic.

Secondly the natural minor scale has the degrees [1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7], in C this would be [C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb], the scale with the spelling [1,2,b3,4,5,6,7] would represent the melodic minor scale, which is a minor scale but has a completely different context to the natural minor, which is what were refer to as "the minor" scale by default in a diatonic context. The reasons behind which minor is which have to do with harmonic function and voice leading considerations, but aeolian or the natural minor is what you would default to if you were told to play in a minor key.

The blues scale is actually a hexatonic scale with the degrees [1,b3,4,b5,5,b7] (enharmonic equivalents). It is basically a minor pentatonic with a tritone added. You wouldn't call it a pentatonic intrinsically.

Em7 is a chord, not a scale, and a badly written and misleading chord at that. There is really no way around that. Both the harmonic minor and melodic minor scales have natural 7ths but are still minor. I would think it is pretty uncommon if someone told me to play in the "key" of Em7, basically I would think they were confused or were trying to confuse me, which is essentially bad communication.

Also when you say the 3rd of a scale is flat if you are using Roman numerals you are implying the chord type. If for example you say "the iii of the scale is flat" the use of lower case numerals tells me that it is a minor triad. if you are telling me that based on a minor "key" that there is a iii attached you have told me a lot more about the scale than you are probably intending to and in fact you are giving me conflicting information. A minor scale has a minor triad attached. If you tell me that there is a iii chord which is flat, it should be written as biii. Furthermore a biii will imply a relative b5 to the tonal centre which will make your tonal centre based on a diminished triad, so either this would have to be seen as an alteration or you are giving the wrong information.

Sorry to nitpick, but I think it is important to be clear about what is being said when giving people advice.

 

[mutedeity]

Sorry if I confused things.

When I see a m7 chord in a jazz chart, it's usually part of a "two five" progression (of course there are many exceptions). I've used it as a simple way to find tonal centers. Functional harmony. Of course it depends on the context, but I was just trying to keep it simple.

I don't think you can look at a single chord like Em7 and know exactly how to analyze its function without context. Again, functional harmony. I was just offering my thought on what it might be.

Also, a tune that came to mind was "So What". Dm7 (Dorian) --> Em7 (Dorian).

See where I'm coming from? I'm not asking you to agree, but you can see what I'm saying, right?

Peace and Music,
Joe

I can see what you are saying, and all things being equal, you could contextualise the chord emin7 to which ever scale you think fits best. I think in the interest of keeping things simple though it should be understood that what one chord on its own implies is very ambiguous.

 

[Bassist4Life]

Also, what you are saying here about writing a chord as emin7 being inadvisable is debatable. em7 is fairly easy to understand, the lower case e reaffirms that the triad is minor, although there could still be confusion over whether the m is lower or upper case. emin7 has no ambiguity at all, and removing ambiguity is what is important when writing chord symbols on charts. On the other hand Em7 looks like E major with a minor 7 which would be a dominant. Anyone that understands roman numerals for chords will see the upper case E as representing a major triad.

I'm not sure why you're going to such lengths to say that "Em7" could be a dominant chord. I don't know anyone that would understand it that way.

I absolutely understand what you're saying. Upper case E = Major triad. "m7" = a minor 7 above the E. The chord by this system would be E G# B D (E dominant). Again, I don't know anyone that would read it that way.

It sounds kind of like a system I may have used back in college when analyzing Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner... However, I used upper and lower case roman numerals instead of letters.

Do you ever read jazz charts? What chord do you play when you see Em7? If I consistently played E dominant 7 chords when I saw "Em7", I'm pretty sure another bass player would be hired for the next gig. Heck, they might not even let me play the next set.

Peace,
Joe

 

[Bassist4Life]

[quick edit]

When I made reference to "So What", I should have said Dm7 --> Ebm7.

My bad.

 

[mutedeity]

I'm not sure why you're going to such lengths to say that "Em7" could be a dominant chord. I don't know anyone that would understand it that way.

I absolutely understand what you're saying. Upper case E = Major triad. "m7" = a minor 7 above the E. The chord by this system would be E G# B D (E dominant). Again, I don't know anyone that would read it that way.

It sounds kind of like a system I may have used back in college when analyzing Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner... However, I used upper and lower case roman numerals instead of letters.

Do you ever read jazz charts? What chord do you play when you see Em7? If I consistently played E dominant 7 chords when I saw "Em7", I'm pretty sure another bass player would be hired for the next gig. Heck, they might not even let me play the next set.

Peace,
Joe

Well, that isn't the point though. Em7 isn't really a good way to write that chord at any rate. It's not that you don't know or I don't know anyone that would, but the fact is that it could be read that way. I think when it comes down to it you have to look at systems that are less ambiguous. emin7 is hard to confuse with anything else, while Em7 and even em7 could be mistaken for something else. I would think that's a hard point to argue.

By the way, if it was me reading that stuff on a chart I would get my pen out and rewrite the chords once I confirmed what they represented with the author. If I lost the gig for making their badly written charts more legible, I would know they probably weren't the most professional people anyway.

 

[onlyclave]

By the way, if it was me reading that stuff on a chart I would get my pen out and rewrite the chords once I confirmed what they represented with the author. If I lost the gig for making their badly written charts more legible, I would know they probably weren't the most professional people anyway.

Is that because it would only take you a couple of hours to learn or because you didn't think you needed to bother with all 17?

This is kind of dumb argument to have. Asking "What can I play over Em7" is like saying "What sentences can I make with the word 'The'?". You don't have enough information. What is the chord immediately before and immediately after? What is the melody? What did you have for lunch?

For the record, Em7 is perfectly clear. Using lower case (emin7) isn't advocated in guitar chord symbols because 1)it's hard to read on a dark stage with those little stand lights and 2) a crappy copiest might make it look like cmin7. Lower case for Roman numeral analysis is standardized.

 

[Bassist4Life]

Well, that isn't the point though. Em7 isn't really a good way to write that chord at any rate. It's not that you don't know or I don't know anyone that would, but the fact is that it could be read that way. I think when it comes down to it you have to look at systems that are less ambiguous. emin7 is hard to confuse with anything else, while Em7 and even em7 could be mistaken for something else. I would think that's a hard point to argue.

By the way, if it was me reading that stuff on a chart I would get my pen out and rewrite the chords once I confirmed what they represented with the author. If I lost the gig for making their badly written charts more legible, I would know they probably weren't the most professional people anyway.

I'm not trying to argue your point. I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your reasoning. No biggie. Thanks for offering your perspective.

Peace,
Joe

 

[E2daGGurl]

I think there are a few misconceptions that I should point out here, mainly for the benefit of those that might be confused by what you are saying. Firstly E minor is a seven tone scale. The octave is not an 8th tone. The octave is played when practising scales as a way of expressing the interval between the 7th and the tonic.

I do realize that, but I was trying to simplify. And, in what peole call a 7th scale - the natural major 7th drops to its flatted form, which is what most people think is a 7th anyway - I guess there's no way around this confusion.

[QUOTE}

Secondly the natural minor scale has the degrees [1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7], in C this would be [C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb], the scale with the spelling [1,2,b3,4,5,6,7] would represent the melodic minor scale, which is a minor scale but has a completely different context to the natural minor, which is what were refer to as "the minor" scale by default in a diatonic context. The reasons behind which minor is which have to do with harmonic function and voice leading considerations, but aeolian or the natural minor is what you would default to if you were told to play in a minor key.

The blues scale is actually a hexatonic scale with the degrees [1,b3,4,b5,5,b7] (enharmonic equivalents). It is basically a minor pentatonic with a tritone added. You wouldn't call it a pentatonic intrinsically.

[/QUOTE]
I don't know what "intrinsically" means in this context (or any context, now that I think about it) but I understand why you're saying that. To call the blues pentatonic scale a hexatonic scale, however, will confuse most musicians I know, and that's all I have to go by.

Em7 is a chord, not a scale, and a badly written and misleading chord at that. There is really no way around that. Both the harmonic minor and melodic minor scales have natural 7ths but are still minor. I would think it is pretty uncommon if someone told me to play in the "key" of Em7, basically I would think they were confused or were trying to confuse me, which is essentially bad communication.

Yes, I understand that. But, I live and work in a world of "bad communication," musically speaking (especially since I left the academic environment). So, my approach is very much tempered by trying to understand what very talented musicians are trying to say to each other and why. You are absolutely right of course. I was just trying to help the OP understand what someone (perhaps someone who was going to work with him or hire him) might have meant.

I really, really appreciate you trying to educate me, though, as I really want to know, even if no one in my immediate musical environment speaks the right lingo.

Also when you say the 3rd of a scale is flat if you are using Roman numerals you are implying the chord type. If for example you say "the iii of the scale is flat" the use of lower case numerals tells me that it is a minor triad. if you are telling me that based on a minor "key" that there is a iii attached you have told me a lot more about the scale than you are probably intending to and in fact you are giving me conflicting information. A minor scale has a minor triad attached. If you tell me that there is a iii chord which is flat, it should be written as biii.

Cool. I'll try to be more technical next post. I was confusing things and being inaccurate - I'll use the Arabic numerals next time.

Furthermore a biii will imply a relative b5 to the tonal centre which will make your tonal centre based on a diminished triad, so either this would have to be seen as an alteration or you are giving the wrong information.

Sorry to nitpick, but I think it is important to be clear about what is being said when giving people advice.

Absolutely. I still think that what Jayarroz posted is what most people would think is meant. But that's just based on my observations of various musicians trying to communicate.

Sorry if I confused anyone, and I wasn't giving advice - just thought I'd say what I'd observed. There is no emin7 scale, but people still use the term anyway.

I think that what most mean is the pentatonic minor blues scale, actually - especially when they're speaking to a bass player. I should have said that initially.

But the horrific confusion over the meaning of the 7th makes me glad that I don't have to figure it out myself. Me - I just ask for a listen and watch where the guitar player's fingers go or if possible, look at the score. And by horrific, I mean it really sounds sucky (to me) if half a band is playing a D# seventh in the key of E and the rest is playing D.

I'm in the audience way more than I'm up on stage.

Also, while I'm personally really glad for the notation/theory lesson, I don't think the OP is likely getting much from this - and would do best to go by what Jayarroz posted.

OP - please chime in.

My post is an html mess - sorry.

 

[mutedeity]

Is that because it would only take you a couple of hours to learn or because you didn't think you needed to bother with all 17?

This is kind of dumb argument to have. Asking "What can I play over Em7" is like saying "What sentences can I make with the word 'The'?". You don't have enough information. What is the chord immediately before and immediately after? What is the melody? What did you have for lunch?

For the record, Em7 is perfectly clear. Using lower case (emin7) isn't advocated in guitar chord symbols because 1)it's hard to read on a dark stage with those little stand lights and 2) a crappy copiest might make it look like cmin7. Lower case for Roman numeral analysis is standardized.

You just like to argue don't you? You obviously didn't read the original post properly as usual. The post was not about what you can play over "Em7", it was about the scale "Em7".

No, Em7 is not perfectly clear. Almost anyone will tell you that "with those little stand lights" you could easily misinterpret the m as being either major or minor. I think if you can't tell the term EMaj7 from the term emin7, it's probably your glasses that need adjusting. Even "jazz" notation for E-7 or E∆7 is preferable to Em7 or EM7.

By the way I think the old "it only took an hour" joke has run it's course. You have failed to revive the wit of it in that last post and looks like you are trying to flog a dead horse.

 

[mutedeity]

I don't know what "intrinsically" means in this context (or any context, now that I think about it) but I understand why you're saying that. To call the blues pentatonic scale a hexatonic scale, however, will confuse most musicians I know, and that's all I have to go by.

I use the word intrinsically because, intrinsically a pentatonic is a 5 tone scale. Also pentatonic is not confined to meaning major and minor pentatonic. Any scale consisting of 5 tones is considered a pentatonic. That would be 5 tones including the tonic and 4 other tones. Once again we don't count the octave as an extra tone.

I normally just call the blues scale "the blues scale" which is what it will most commonly be called. Calling it the blues pentatonic is a misnomer, at least when you are referring to a scale with the degrees [1,b3,4,b5,5,b7]. The fact is that it is a hexatonic, because it has 6 tones. I wouldn't call it the blues hexatonic though.

Also I would say that if the OP isn't getting much out of what I say then they should probably pay attention to DocBop, if anyone.

 

[onlyclave]

By the way, if it was me reading that stuff on a chart I would get my pen out and rewrite the chords once I confirmed what they represented with the author.

What does that look like on your chart?

C (C E G) F ( F A C) G7 (G B D F) Em7 (emin7 E G B D)

Never mark up a part with a pen. On a rental book they charge dearly for that. But, I guess if you are a superior musician you are allowed to permanently deface it with your improvements.

 

[mutedeity]

What does that look like on your chart?

C (C E G) F ( F A C) G7 (G B D F) Em7 (emin7 E G B D)

Never mark up a part with a pen. On a rental book they charge dearly for that. But, I guess if you are a superior musician you are allowed to permanently deface it with your improvements.

Are you feeling ok?

Yes good advice though, don't mark charts that aren't yours to mark, obviously. Then again I would have thought it was obvious that that wasn't what I was talking about.

 

[onlyclave]

Are you feeling ok?

Yes good advice though, don't mark charts that aren't yours to mark, obviously. Then again I would have thought it was obvious that that wasn't what I was talking about.

Just like it is obvious that the OP is saying Em7, what scale can I play over this.

Based on the frequency if this very question we can all jump to the logical conclusion that this is exactly what the OP is asking for.

 

[mutedeity]

Just like it is obvious that the OP is saying Em7, what scale can I play over this.

Based on the frequency if this very question we can all jump to the logical conclusion that this is exactly what the OP is asking for.

You see, unlike you, and this is the obvious bit here, I don't make assumptions based on limited information. Also I was responding to someone else that posted on the thread that did go into Em7 as meaning a scale.

I will give it to you though, you are fantastic at jumping to conclusions. Just like the conclusion you jumped to with your "no one ever got fired for playing the root note" comment.

Really the way I see it, your big shortcoming here is that you assume that people need to be told what is right and what is wrong based on what you assume they need to do. You fail to realise that people are intelligent enough to be able to make their own decisions once they have their options explained to them.

 

[Pacman]

Also, what you are saying here about writing a chord as emin7 being inadvisable is debatable. em7 is fairly easy to understand, the lower case e reaffirms that the triad is minor, although there could still be confusion over whether the m is lower or upper case. emin7 has no ambiguity at all, and removing ambiguity is what is important when writing chord symbols on charts. On the other hand Em7 looks like E major with a minor 7 which would be a dominant. Anyone that understands roman numerals for chords will see the upper case E as representing a major triad.

Actually, minor always refers to the 3rd in a chord symbol. Upper case or lower case an "m" or "Min" always refers to the 3rd of the chord. "Major" or "M" in a chord symbol always refers to the 7th when left without another number (e.g. maj9). There's nothing confusing about Em7 - because E major with a minor 7th would be E7, as you said.

 

[mutedeity]

Actually, minor always refers to the 3rd in a chord symbol. Upper case or lower case an "m" or "Min" always refers to the 3rd of the chord. "Major" or "M" in a chord symbol always refers to the 7th when left without another number (e.g. maj9). There's nothing confusing about Em7 - because E major with a minor 7th would be E7, as you said.

Yes, but Em7 might be misread as EM7. Also if I saw IIIm7, I wouldn't take that to mean a minor triad with a minor 7th, I would see that as a redundant way of writing III7. Ok, I will give that the "jazz" notation of E-7 is acceptable, but I personally wouldn't use that notation myself.

As for the minor referring to the third, I can't say that really makes a lot of sense since a diminished triad has a minor 3rd as well. For your statement to be true, then we must assume that a triad [1,b3,b5] is minor.

 

[Pacman]

Yes, but Em7 might be misread as EM7. Also if I saw IIIm7, I wouldn't take that to mean a minor triad with a minor 7th, I would see that as a redundant way of writing III7. Ok, I will give that the "jazz" notation of E-7 is acceptable, but I personally wouldn't use that notation myself.

I've seen EM7 misread as Em7, but never the reverse. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never seen it and I've been playing professionally for well over 20 years. I'm not talking roman numerals, either. Again, I've seen Nashville Numbers alot, but never roman numerals on a gig....

As for the minor referring to the third, I can't say that really makes a lot of sense since a diminished triad has a minor 3rd as well. For your statement to be true, then we must assume that a triad [1,b3,b5] is minor.

No, you're putting words in my mouth. When "minor" appears in the chord symbol, it's always referring to the 3rd. That's not saying something else can refer to it (dim obviously refers to the diminished triad). But when minor is in the chord, it's talking about the 3rd. Always.

 

[mutedeity]

I've seen EM7 misread as Em7, but never the reverse. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never seen it and I've been playing professionally for well over 20 years. I'm not talking roman numerals, either. Again, I've seen Nashville Numbers alot, but never roman numerals on a gig....

That may be but that is my rationale with the Roman numerals. I think with the Em7 as a symbol, at the end of the day there is ambiguity or a chance to misread something. That is really my point. I think the bottom line is, it is less likely to misread Maj7 as min7, unless it is particularly badly written, than any of the other arguments put forward.

No, you're putting words in my mouth. When "minor" appears in the chord symbol, it's always referring to the 3rd. That's not saying something else can refer to it (dim obviously refers to the diminished triad). But when minor is in the chord, it's talking about the 3rd. Always.

With regard to that argument I will concede that yes it does as a matter of redundancy occur that when you see the term minor it will mean that the third is affected. I think this is different to it referring to the third, though.

When I say "as a matter of redundancy" I am talking about the fact that the chord symbol "emin7" is actually shorthand for eminor/minor7. In this case the minor refers to the 7th as well. So I would argue that all things being equal the term minor must be referring to the triad first and the 7th second.

I think the case for a diminished chord really reiterates this point because if the term diminished refers to the function of both the 3rd and 5th, then it would follow that the term minor refers to the function of both too. It would also follow that an augmented triad refers to the function of the 5th being affected, but this in turn does not mean it is referring to the 5th only.

 

[Pacman]

With regard to that argument I will concede that yes it does as a matter of redundancy occur that when you see the term minor it will mean that the third is affected. I think this is different to it referring to the third, though.

When I say "as a matter of redundancy" I am talking about the fact that the chord symbol "emin7" is actually shorthand for eminor/minor7. In this case the minor refers to the 7th as well. So I would argue that all things being equal the term minor must be referring to the triad first and the 7th second.

What in the world is a minor/minor 7th??? It's a minor 7 chord. For clarity, unless it says "major" in the chord symbol, the 7th is a minor 7. It's automatic. So in the example, minor refers to the 3rd, 7 refers the minor 7.

I think the case for a diminished chord really reiterates this point because if the term diminished refers to the function of both the 3rd and 5th, then it would follow that the term minor refers to the function of both too. It would also follow that an augmented triad refers to the function of the 5th being affected, but this in turn does not mean it is referring to the 5th only.

Really? What else would it refer to? xAug7 - the aug is only referring to the 5th. xAug9 - same thing.

Think about all the chord symbols you've seen. Can you tell me one that you've seen that will refute what I've said? Minor always refers to the function of the 3rd. You'll see this specifically in the minor/major7 chord. You've never seen a major/minor chord symbol have you? (that's because all you'd have to write would be x7)