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Eminence B102 as a replacement speaker?

#22
I have the Eminence BP102's loaded in my cab now.

My cab is almost a perfect match for these speakers per WinISD. But the proof is in the actual sound.

It has exactly the tone I'm after. The lowest notes are very tight and well defined. Comparing this to my 410 cab, What little bit I've lost in volume, I have more than made up for in tone, punch and definition. Every note through the spectrum, is just "there".

Through my 410 it seemed that the notes on the D and G strings were weak and the low notes on the E string were kind of mushy. There, but not distinct. Not too bad though, and I really only noticed it in comparing it to my new 210 cab. In the 210, the upper notes are full and the low notes on the E are solid, without the slightest hint of boominess.

I guess the only way to really describe the sound of the Eminence BP102's is distinct and punchy with each note being well defined. However, with it being a 210 (less speaker mass, and the the BP102's have a lower SPL) there is not as much volume as with the 410. The new 210 will get as loud as I need it to in most situations...pretty damn loud, though not earthquake loud. But, then again I run through a PA with dedicated subs, so I really only need this for my stage amp.

The BP102's are very worthwhile...and a great deal at 150.00 (inlcuding shipping) for two of them.

Thanks again to everyone, especially Bruce for all the trouble he went to putting that spreadsheet together. Very helpful.
 
#25
Petebass said:
Initial reports are good. Can I ask you to check in after you've done a few gigs and/or rehearsals? IMO that's the real test.
Click to expand...

Well, with the band is surely the real test...especially live. But since I know what my 410 is capable of in a live setting...side by side comparison gives me some great results.

I know this much...tone is WAY better. Lower notes are more defined and tighter. Volume output is lower.

I can't wait to hear it out live. My mix onstage has been fine volume wise and the tone hasn't been bad, though sometimes it's sounded a little mushy...thus the switch to this one.

I have a gig Friday night. I'll let you know how it does there.
 
#26
Played a gig with the new combo. It was in a fairly large room and I wasn't sure if a 210 would handle it.

The tone of this combo is sensational. It's almost too clean sounding...but because of that sits well in the mix. My low notes are no longer boomy, yet they still have some authority.

Keep in mind I have PA support, but in this particular room I had to keep the bass volume up there onstage last time I played there with a 410. With the 210 loaded with the BP102's, at first I was really worried that it wouldn't keep up volume-wise. I noticed that I really had to push the speakers to generate any decent stage volume.

And that is consistent with the rated SPL for them. They handle the low end great, but they are inefficient, so they need to be driven hard...and they can handle it!

I used my Eden WT400 and when I had it crankin', my tone has never sounded better...very nice growling punch, but with totally controlled low end. All the low notes on the E string had nice definition, without booming around the stage like they had before. Sometimes in the past, low notes were kind of mushy...like it didn't matter if I played an E up to a G...it all just sounded the same. So, in that way, this cab is an upgrade as it tightens the low end and gives it more focus.

I am thrilled with this combo's tone, and it works great in an average sized bar room. But it would need help in large rooms or outdoor gigs.

BP102-210 combo...

Pros: fabulous tone, tight/focused low end. Great full range tone throughout the scales, from low E to any notes high up the neck (with no tweeter even).

Cons: Low SPL...definitely need to throw a lot of watts at them and drive them before they will put out much volume. But...if you do they will sound great.

Overall: Worth more than what they sell for, if they are in the right cab. They were jumping pretty hard when I had it cranked...but even so, they never lost the tight focused low end, or sounded distorted. Keepers. Now I just wish I had a larger power amp and another 210 cab to go with it for larger shows, as my Eden head only goes down to 4 ohms.

Ideally, for bigger rooms and outdoors, I'd like to make another cab and load two more of these into it. Then use my Eden head as a pre-amp and drive both cabs with a seperate power amp that can handle 2 ohms.
 
#27
...The big thing for me with these drivers, that I really want to get across to others...

They are really inefficient! I can't stress enough that you need to put a lot into them to get some decent volume.

If you have less than...hmmm, 400 watts to play with, I wouldn't even consider them unless you played in a fairly quiet band.

But if you got power to spare...Whoa! Awesome speakers for the price.
 
#28
The Basslite S2010 is the Neo replacement for the BP102 (I guess), and it is some +3dB more sensitive. In a 4x10, that should add up nicely.

BTW, the BP102 works very nicely in a Tuba bass horn. Sensitivity is not a problem.

[ edit ]

The S2010 is the BP102 replacement. I changed the above from CH2010, which is wrong. The CH is the hemp cone model.
 
#29
I wasn't expecting the world with these speakers.

I also wasn't surprised that I needed to throw a lot of power at them. I was pleasantly surprised at how they seemed to handle the full range though (which I initially though the B102's with the whizzer cone would have done better).

I went with the BP102's because the specs and recommendations seem to be that they would handle the low end better (which they do admirably for a 210 combo). I"m not talking thunderous low end like I would get if I could combine the 210 with say, a 15" cab. But for what I need it for (onstage personal bass monitoring...without getting too "boomy" onstage), this combo does great for me in a small to mid-size environment.

Specs aside, while I do have a tweeter in the cab, it is there in a cosmetic role only as it is not wired up. The two BP102's seem to cover the spectrum rather well. I've never liked tweeters, and I like a deep, full sound. Without the tweeter, all the notes sounded clean and full, from the lowest E to the highest notes on the neck...without sounding shrill (as I think they do with a tweeter).

But then again, I play in a classic rock band, and most subtleties would be lost on me anyway in that context. The cab does sound bright...almost too bright. And that's just using the BP102's only...no smaller speaker or tweeter.

I was kind of surprised at how bright the cab sounds. I was expecting to have to turn up the highs, but instead I actually needed to cut them a bit as this cab gives me a very birght sound (along with it being full and punchy).

It is the perfect setup for me, because I do not really need a ton of low end on stage. I go through a PA and I can feel the thunderous lows from the PA subs. When I hit a low note along with my drummer, it feels solid and heavy (as if I had an 18" onstage with me). So the 210 works for me in most environments anyway.

But given the low efficiency...this 210 will not cut it by itself in a very large indoor, or outdoor gig. I will have to add a power amp and another speaker cab for those...but those gigs are few and far between.

All in all, if I had to do it all over again...I wouldn't change a thing. For what I needed the BP102's do what I intended this cab to do.
 
#30
Thanks for the observations.

The anechoic response chart shows the BP102 rolling off above 2000 Hz. You note that yours is bright enough, even without a tweeter. The 91 SPL does pose a problem with 2x10... just not enough to make sufficient racket unless horn loaded.

The S2010 replacement is lighter weight and higher sensitivity, but tonally different with less bottom. It requires a much smaller box for optimal tuning.
 
#31
bgavin said:
Thanks for the observations.

The anechoic response chart shows the BP102 rolling off above 2000 Hz. You note that yours is bright enough, even without a tweeter. The 91 SPL does pose a problem with 2x10... just not enough to make sufficient racket unless horn loaded.
The S2010 replacement is lighter weight and higher sensitivity, but tonally different with less bottom. It requires a much smaller box for optimal tuning.
Click to expand...

Well, it only poses a problem if you don't have enough power to throw at it...and you don't need to be extremely loud. The band I play in is a fairly loud classic rock band, but I've played in bands much louder.

No 210 cab is really going to keep up with a very loud band...just not much there for speaker mass. I ended up having to really push my Eden WT400 hard as we tend to get a little louder as the night goes on.

But, interestingly enough...it seemed the harder I pushed the BP102's the better they sounded. Though by the end of the night, I was pretty much at my limit with my setup.

Fortunately the place we played at is just about the biggest room we play in, except for outdoor gigs. The 210 ain't ever going to cut it outdoors without some help from another cab and power amp (using the Eden as a pre-amp for it).

If anyone is thinking about using the BP102's, they need to know that while they sound great and handle a lot of power...they also require a lot of power. I'd hate to think what my cab would have sounded like if I only had, say, a 200 watt amp. I could have used even more power for a little more headroom. I definitely would not recommend these speakers for anyone who has less than 400 watts (for two speakers at 4ohms total).
 
#32
Sundogue said:
Well, it only poses a problem if you don't have enough power to throw at it......

If anyone is thinking about using the BP102's, they need to know that while they sound great and handle a lot of power...they also require a lot of power. I'd hate to think what my cab would have sounded like if I only had, say, a 200 watt amp. I could have used even more power for a little more headroom. I definitely would not recommend these speakers for anyone who has less than 400 watts (for two speakers at 4ohms total).
Click to expand...

just bearin mind you arent using 500 watt woofers there. there is a limit to how much power you can "throw" at them. i dont know what that limit is, buut it is there nonetheless.

to all involved, i enjoyed this thread, and look forward to others like it.
 
#33
Crockettnj said:
just bearin mind you arent using 500 watt woofers there. there is a limit to how much power you can "throw" at them. i dont know what that limit is, buut it is there nonetheless.

to all involved, i enjoyed this thread, and look forward to others like it.
Click to expand...

No, they are 200 watt speakers wired as a 4ohm cab and 400 watts. My previous cab was a 300 watt 410 and these speakers can handle way more than the Peavey 75 watt speakers that are in the 410, that I drove with the same head. Ideally I'd like to have some headroom.
 
#34
The real place to run a BP102 is inside a Tuba bass horn.

I finished construction on my first Tuba last night, and lit it off for grins and giggles. My driver is a car sub (Rockford RFR-2210) which is *far* less sensitive than the BP102. As a direct radiator, the RFR-2210 is about useless anywhere larger than a car interior. Not the case when loaded in the Tuba.

I have the Tuba set up to bi-amp with an Ampeg B4R head and the 610HLF cab. That single 10" keeps right up with the big Ampeg cab, and adds a bottom the Ampeg can only dream about. My Tuba would probably be more efficient with a better driver than the 85 SPL I get from the RFR-2210, but I have a herd of 2210 I need to use somewhere.

The BP102 is one of the recommended drivers for a Tuba 24. Academic anyway, as the BP102 is history after the existing stock is sold out. The Basslite S2010 is the replacement.
 
#35
I've got two Eden XLT 410 cabs with all blown and locked-up speakers.
I want to keep using these cabs but just can't afford to load them all up with new Edens - so I'm considering the BP102. Has anyone got any input about how that might work out? I also need to fill an old 8x10 SVT cab and need ideas there too. Any advice would be great.
 
#36
Get WinISD. Measure the cab, compute the internal volume. Measure the ports, use WinISD to compute the tuning (pick any driver or choose one of your target drivers to save a step). Load up the BP102 and Basslite S2010 T/S parameters. Does it look good to you? If so, try them out.

It might be cheaper to see what you can get for the knackered Edens and buy an Avatar cab or two. I'm not advocating any path forward because I don't have enough info. In my case, I have a Fender sealed 4x10 that I hate the sound of and I can't get any reasonable amount of cash for. I'm dropping in some Jensen Mod 50's just for a lark. I wanted to hear those drivers but didn't want to build a box for them. Well, here's the box!

It's not cheap to experiment like this, but you do get some insights out of it. If my 4x10 experiment doesn't work out I can probably find uses for the four Mod 50's.

KO
 
#37
BP102 are great speakers.Eminence told me to go for them & they were right.These speakers are heavy duty speakers that go lower than 15` subs. No tweeters no midrange speakers just 8 BP102` that shake everything & drown my band when i used them with a Fender TB600.Cabs were modeled after Fender pro Cabs....No Winisd used.
GREAT SPEAKERS GREAT RESULTS. Better than expected.
 
#38
I went with the BP-102-4 in my Goliath II, the original PAS woofers wer blown and I wanted a 4-ohm cab for the SVT. I'm extremely pleased with these speakers, in both tone and low end "ummph". The low end is very comparable to my 1x15, where they both rattle everything in sight. However, I do feel that the 1x15 does produce a more "fuller" and wider spectrum of the low frequencies, where the 4x10 is tighter and more focused. Probably due to the nature of a 15" cone compared to the 10" cones. In all, it seems that these were a perfect match for the Goliath II cab, maybe I got lucky. I believe I can make due w/o a 15" cab if I have to...successfully at that.
 
#39
Good ta hear buddy.My set-up of 2 410` loaded with the BP102` sounds good to me also. Nice bass nice mids but if you like highs at about 7000hz you will need tweeters.Ive noticed that they sound alot better when pushed.If i have a jam at home on my own i dont tend to turn up that much & they sound better to me when cranked.The louder the better.
 

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