Double Bass Eminence VS BSX Allegro? Anyone played both?

[Richard Simon]

"...the acoustic bass is just not an instrument I will ever make sound good, because I don't feel it."
Now, there is some honesty and wisdom.
Our musical voice is highly personal. Methinks we all have a sound in our head - a combination of our favorite players' and our own ideal sound - and we strive to emulate or reproduce that sound as players. TalkBass abounds with evidence of the search for the means to create that sound - whether via an instrument, certain strings, a pickup, an amp and/or speakers, or a mic. High action is favored by some; low for others. Long string length is the preference of folks over here, and shorter is favored by these other cats (or kittens).
Personally, the sound of the MK Classic - as produced imperfectly in a YouTube video - is too 'puffy.' My own ears prefer the sound Rickwolff developed by tweaking his BSX. That said, I'll probably always prefer the 'gestalt' of an upright because it usually gets closer to the ideal, and to my sense that I can 'make it sound good, because I...feel it.'

 

[donotfret]

Personally, the sound of the MK Classic - as produced imperfectly in a YouTube video - is too 'puffy.' My own ears prefer the sound Rickwolff developed by tweaking his BSX. That said, I'll probably always prefer the 'gestalt' of an upright because it usually gets closer to the ideal, and to my sense that I can 'make it sound good, because I...feel it.'

There we go. I think I know what you mean by "puffy". Originally I preferred the sound of the Eminence and BSX to the MK, possibly because of this. But I realised that the attack and decay (and hence time feel) that the MK offers to my palette will be very valuable. For the punchier stuff I have the NXT and for the punchiest of all there's the bass guitar. The time feel is in the end more important to me than the overall sound (most of which disappears in the mix anyway).

Here is something I think is worth doing: listen to Esperanza Spalding recordings of the same songs played with the Eminence and with an acoustic double bass. There are several of these recordings out there, so it will give you a good comparison. You'll probably come to the same conclusion as I did - the Eminence is lacking lower end, but sounds more brilliant (pleasantly so) than the acoustic bass in the mids. Once you've done this, get back to the sound of the BSX and the MK.

 

[Jeff Newton]

Rick,

I've owned both and I sold both. I also apologize in advance for the lengthy post below. I do hope it helps you think it through.

In answer to your question (IMHO) the Eminence was closer to my acoustic upright than the Allegro. Both sounded great with my preference of DB strings, and again (IMHO) the Eminence sounded better both arco and pizz. Depth of arco was good with the Allegro, pizz "okay" (sounded like "many" amplified uprights) but needed just a touch of reverb to get some "air" into the tone and sound better. Eminence didn't need reverb to sound great on both.

Whether you will be satisfied with either really depends on what your goals are. I used both in my days subbing in Jazz trios/quartets and in a church band. My particular goals were oriented towards having a suitable substitute for my upright in snowy Colorado winters. Both fulfilled nicely.

Initially I sought an EUB with "most" of the physical references of my upright. As my skill progressed, the physical references became somewhat irrelevant.

Ultimately after I sold both, (and went through a Yamaha Silent Bass too) I then bought a NSD CR4M, a neck heel and an end pin stand. For my needs arco and pizz were great in a much smaller package. I even took my NSD to Japan and Hawaii. It travelled well and played great, and was in a much smaller package. Note that I've also bought and sold several NSD CR's over the years - and recently rebought one. Every time I've gone with the same setup as above.

So, while my specifics may differ from the outcomes you seek, I truly believe that you must define what you want out of an EUB before buying any specific one.

Determine whether it's tone, physical references, portability, or something else - then it's the music you play/want to play, and whether your bass will be acceptable to both other musicians and the audience. Perhaps (best case) both the musician's and the audience's egos will be checked at the door and your first notes will slam them to the floor.

Oh, and on another topic, think clearly about how you will be amplifying your EUB. Since I do double on both upright and BG and where I'm playing (generally) focuses on one or the other, I tend not to bring both to a gig - I'm either on BG or upright/EUB. BG gigs have one type of rig and upright/EUB requires another. On upright/EUB I run a very SMALL rig. With a small rig for both acoustic and EUB, I've found that it becomes much less distracting to the audience and my fellow band mates, especially if they are running acoustic only.

Again, this is all IMHO. YMMV...

John

So, are you saying that the NS Design "top of the line" was actually BETTER sounding than either the BSX or the Eminence, or at least AS GOOD? Of course, it's a much smaller package. NS have a lot going on for them. That said, I just passed on one for cello in favor of something else, because I think they sound great - but much like a guitar, not a cello.

 

[Jeff Newton]

There we go. I think I know what you mean by "puffy". Originally I preferred the sound of the Eminence and BSX to the MK, possibly because of this. But I realised that the attack and decay (and hence time feel) that the MK offers to my palette will be very valuable. For the punchier stuff I have the NXT and for the punchiest of all there's the bass guitar. The time feel is in the end more important to me than the overall sound (most of which disappears in the mix anyway).

Here is something I think is worth doing: listen to Esperanza Spalding recordings of the same songs played with the Eminence and with an acoustic double bass. There are several of these recordings out there, so it will give you a good comparison. You'll probably come to the same conclusion as I did - the Eminence is lacking lower end, but sounds more brilliant (pleasantly so) than the acoustic bass in the mids. Once you've done this, get back to the sound of the BSX and the MK.

Are you saying that you prefer the sound of the BSX and the MK to the Eminence? Thanks...

 

[freshbass]

An interesting thread here for me as I venture back into the 3/4 upright ownership world and play many different ones. My previous forays failed for 2 reasons; (1) my practice space is small and below ground w/ a 6' ceiling height , insulated/heated/humidified however (1850 house) (2) arthritis in hands/back / shoulder so I cannot raise my left arm to a 90 degree parallel and keep the nut at eye level. So while I lust after and ponder yet another double bass I also am looking at EUB options and so far the favored contender is the Eminence portable because while it's small it's acoustic and IMO has the same sound due to that, while the rest all mostly sound like my fretless archtop bass. ANother thought I've heard expressed, not favorably, is that once you install a pickup on an acoustic instrument (bass) , and plug into an amp, you are now playing an electrified bass. Yes, the bloom and decay remain but it's no longer truly acoustic unless you use a microphone and a powered PA monitor or house PA, or play it without an amp of any kind. Back to the eminence; it's acoustic, it's equipped w/ a realist transducer pickup (the prevalent upright choice), it's far more porting/cartage and gigging friendly...and many pros seem to be using them . The late Herbie Lewis for one.

 

[Richard Simon]

Kudos to you on going back to the upright bass.
I was 'this' close to buying an Eminence for the very reasons you cited, but I backed away because the unamplified sound of it was - even to the shopkeeper who proffered it - pretty awful. Maybe the strings were to blame, or the set-up. It just didn't resonate pleasingly, either pizz or arco. My usual handful of licks sounded plastic. Every bass, even a factory-made clone, is different, so I might have come across a dud.
The great thing is that you're playing, and if the Eminence meets your needs, swing on!

 

[DoubleMIDI]

If you cannot reach with your hand to the nut, a smaller instrument (shorter scale) that is raised to less than normal height might work better than a standard 3/4 scale.
You can do that with an EUB too, but most of them have a 3/4 string scale, so if you lower the instrument, a bow might be too low or your pizz hand sits higher than normal, giving you less attack. BG scale instruments typically need BG strings that don‘t bow well and sound like a BG. (I have DB strings made like a BG string and they sound like a BG.)

EUBs never sound like a DB. Even with a pickup the resonance of the top is missing in the sound and bow response.
But if you cannot choose, an EUB is better than a BG for DB-oriented music.

BTW, an Eminence acoustically sounds like a viola compared to a cello when playing the same pitches.
It gets better when amplified, but I dislike the T-endpin, because it completely hinders any rotation.
I prefer a single endpin with a rigid body support that is covered with rubber foam or textile to stick to the clothes.
The bowing is a bit easier with the resonance chamber than with a solid body instrument.

 

[bobsax]

I wonder if people are even buying either of these anymore? Seems like the fold up neck has become the standard for traveling upright players. I have the Allegro and have never played the eminence . One thing about the allegro is, it is seriously heavy…… Weighs more than my full-size upright.

 

[audiorep2]

Are any of these small hollow body basses being discussed here prone to feedback from an adjacent amp ?

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

Are any of these small hollow body basses being discussed here prone to feedback from an adjacent amp ?

I never had that problem with the Eminence or BSX Allegro. I could turn the volume up much higher than I could with a regular double bass with a piezo pickup.

- Steve

 

[speedster]

 

[speedster]

Above is my Eminence and my BSX, like them both but have played the Eminence for many years and thus my favourite. Both have their own unique qualities and both are excellent axes that deliver a good live sound. Wouldn't be afraid of having either. Lucky for me I have one of each....

 

[Richard Simon]

This-here’s my Carruthers, a brother-from-another-mother to yours. Mike recently upgraded the electronics, but I think I preferred the original sound. Anyway, that black object sitting on the bridge is screwed into the right side of the bass to have ‘body contact’ while playing. Do your basses have something similar,,or do you find you don’t need it?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

An EUB is more difficult to play without a body support and you really need it if you ever want to bow such a thing.
But it needs to sit at the right position and should not glide too easily over the clothes.

 

[TomB]

…Anyway, that black object sitting on the bridge is screwed into the right side of the bass to have ‘body contact’ while playing. Do your basses have something similar,,or do you find you don’t need it?View attachment 5040938

If you’re accustomed to playing a full upright it adds a familiar distance to the fingerboard. It also enhances control of the body. I wouldn’t want to play my Eminence without it.

 

[freshbass]

I cannot make the comparison... but i own a BSX Allegro for.. 6 years now (maybe more).
The sound is close to my double bass, but has a slight electric feel to it. I don't know how to describe it, it sounds very solid... and misses the floating body sound.
It's very portable, i use it every week for band rehearsals.
I love the ability to be able to set the signal strength of each string.

Then again, you should also take the amplification method in account. If you'd run it through a Markbass, it'll never come close to an actual double bass

no small body hollow or solid EUB can duplicate the tone of an upright 100% , the body of a double bass is a 40" speaker...that and the floating bridge and tailpiece create the tone. Might be why Jaco used 18" speaker folded horns and digital delay w/ his fretless jazz...to get that big pillowy sound as best he could. I use an Ibanez srh500f for jazz when I can't haul my upright, and I use a GK MB150E, which was made for upright and IMO is still the best amp for it. It gets as close or closer than any EUB I've yet tried. But if I were to buy one it would be the eminence.

 

[Doublebasstim]

Just saw Rick's Youtube video, putting the BSX through a cool little combo rig using the Ischell contact mic -

and was pretty impressed by the fantastic tone - congrats, Rick on a great combination of ingredients, and nice playing!

How has this setup been working for you?

Right now I'm working on an extremely Lo-Fi instrument build (upright neck + archtop guitar body) employing flatwound bass guitar strings with a mechanical neck joint that could theoretically be taken along as carry-on luggage, when all is said and done. But the full string-length of course puts the BSX & others like it in another league.

Leave it to bass players to find a solution to a fundamental problem like travel restrictions...

How did you attach the shark fin or thumb position extra thing?

 

[rickwolff]

How did you attach the shark fin or thumb position extra thing?

I used 3M Dual Lock. It's like an industrial strength velcro. Very useful. I also use it to attach heads to speaker cabs. Very secure but you can still separate the two pieces. And it's totally removable-but I wouldn't use it on the fine finish of a double bass. It did peel of the painted surface of the BSX with no damage or marring.

 

[freshbass]

I used to own an Eminence RN5 which I really liked, but sold it

I have a chance to get a BSX Allegro.

If you'd played both, do you think I'd be happy with it?

I'd like to get as close to an actual DB sound as possible. The Eminence did that quite well.

Thoughts?

I've owned the BSX allegro (40.5" scale) and an Ibanez UB804 (34" scale). To get the action on the bsx to my liking required tilting the neck which lessened contact area w/ the heel and also lessened the fullness of tone, as did the rather thick hollow body. I got closer to upright tone w/ the Ibanez by installing labella tapewound strings .55-.115 and putting a mute at the bridge. Eventually I sold both as my Ibanez SRH500F sounded just as close and was very easy to carry around. If I ever get another I will likely buy the RF bass. But nothing feels or sounds like my Shen sb300. It's physics really, an acoustic bass body is a 40" speaker, and hugging that big bear and feeling the resonance cannot be duplicated, and that fat neck also helps. Many lutherie are trying, closest I've heard is the Marcustico acoustic bass ($4500) or the RF Travel bass light ($2800) .