Entry Level Professional Positions....

[Pilgrim]

EEs are very versatile folks. The important thing is to get feelers out, do online research, and look all around. You have to invest energy into the job search to find a good position.

And if for some reason you MUST have a CAD course, there are plenty of college-level online CAD courses you can take without having to get admitted to a school...and it will still be a valid, transcripted course. Heck, we offer two of 'em - one in Construction Management and one in Design & Merchandising. CAD is a pretty darn versatile tool!

 

[MakiSupaStar]

Find your dream company, get your resume together, shave, cut your hair, put on your monkey suit and then walk into the HR office holding a new mop. Tell them that you're willing to start cleaning the floors, and work your way up. I knew a guy that did that for Boeing, when he got his first job out of school. That guy was my Dad (also an Engineer). He retired last year as VP for Bentley.

 

[eedre]

You're an EE, don't worry about CAD! Being a CAD jockey is a very boring job anyway. Besides, if you really want to learn to use CAD, you co teach yourself. It is very easy for someone who thinks like an engineer.

For your first job, you have to think out of the box. Don't fixate on the experience you have from school (matlab, etc.). Your biggest asset is that you have a strong background in EE fundamentals, and have proven your ability to learn. No one ever walks into a new job already knowing how to do it, and employers know this. Show them that you are a fast learner, and have drive and determination.

Don't limit your self to jobs that resemble something you did in an EE class. There is WAY more to the world of engineering then what you learn in school. For example, I have a degree in Mech. E. but now six year out of school I have a job which requires very little theoretical engineering. I manage multimillion dollar projects for a large printing corporation. It is a very low stress position and pays well. My first job out of school had me in a machine shop, designing parts and machines, and using CAD and all that, but the time management skills, personal skills, and leadership skills I honed in engineering school really out shine skills like operating a CAD program.

One more thing. If you can, don't be afraid to travel and move for your job. Look for jobs all over the country. You'd be surprised, but many companies hard up for a good engineer will fly you in for interviews and cover some moving expenses.

Thanks for the tips!

Funny you mention companies covering travel and accommodations for interviews. I was recently flown out to AL and met with a bunch of candidates who A) Were typical wallflower engineers, B) Didn't ask any questions, and C) Acted completely uninterested in the company.

Can't see how those folks were even selected for an interview let alone the management job itself.

I, as usual out of my element, was Mr. Loudmouth. I asked questions directly related THAT position. I was personable and enthusiastic the entire time. I remembered the names of every person I met that had a hand in the interview process and mentioned them all in my thank you e-mail the day after. As of right now, I'm willing to travel as much as Joe Corporation wants me to. I am not, as of right now, willing to relocate. It seems I'd had to leave to get anything. St. Louis is dead in the water for jobs. Especially with all the experienced A-B engineers now looking for work in the same area.

They said one week to hear back either way. It's been two.

Also, I really meant PLC Programming more than CAD. But right now, it seems learning CAD would have been better than Matlab.

 

[eedre]

Find your dream company, get your resume together, shave, cut your hair, put on your monkey suit and then walk into the HR office holding a new mop. Tell them that you're willing to start cleaning the floors, and work your way up. I knew a guy that did that for Boeing, when he got his first job out of school. That guy was my Dad (also an Engineer). He retired last year as VP for Bentley.

That'd be great if the world still worked like that! Sadly, you'd probably have to apply online and answer 50 questions before they'd get you into screening for floor mopper. You'd probably have to join a union too!

...and I would be considered overqualified to mop the floors...

 

[zac2944]

Thanks for the tips!

Funny you mention companies covering travel and accommodations for interviews. I was recently flown out to AL and met with a bunch of candidates who A) Were typical wallflower engineers, B) Didn't ask any questions, and C) Acted completely uninterested in the company.

I, as usual out of my element, was Mr. Loudmouth. I asked questions directly related THAT position. As of right now, I'm willing to travel as much as Joe Corporation wants me to. I am not as of right now, however, willing to relocate.

They said one week to hear back either way.

Also, I really meant PLC Programming more than CAD. But right now, it seems learning CAD would have been better than Matlab.

Well, if you don't want to relocate you'll just have to deal with the job market in St. Louis; which isn't a bad place to be. Just get out there and network. Join LinkedIn.com.

Your interview situation sounds familiar. I've been there and it is usually not a good sign. Don't forget though, any EE job is better than no job. I graduated in 2002, which is somewhat similar to the economic situation today (tech stock crash). I took a $hit engineering job for my first gig, but it opened the door to other opportunities once I got some experience. In only six years I've increased my salary 260% (I now make 2.6 times more than I did at my first job).

A few interview/resume tips. Asking questions is good. Let them know you're interested. Try to get specifics on the day-to-day duties of your position. Find out how much, if any, traveling will be involved. If you can talk with other EEs, find out what they like most and like least about their position. Ask them what they find most satisfying about their work. Ask the hiring manager what the upper limits of the pay scale are for that position and what a typical future growth path is for someone in that position. As you are about to finish up the interview with the hiring manager ask them if they have any reservations about hiring you and if they find anything lacking in your resume of from the interview. Put them on the spot. This will give you a chance to address any issues they might have.

Good luck.

 

[lamarjones]

use those engineering skills and get real familiar with card/game probabilities and play online poker all day

 

[eedre]

As you are about to finish up the interview with the hiring manager ask them if they have any reservations about hiring you and if they find anything lacking in your resume of from the interview. Put them on the spot. This will give you a chance to address any issues they might have.

Good luck.

I actually did this once; it was kind of funny to see them all get uncomfortable and resituate themselves in their seats. I asked "So! Does this look like a good match?"

But I've found that putting them on the spot really increases the level of BS that comes out. Legal stuff, you know.

I've also set no bar for the quality of the job. I just want experience with compensation. I've even tried to apply for co-ops but get shot down because I am no longer in school.

Thanks for the all the helpful stuff you've told me, I never expected a job to fall into my lap. But it's hard to keep on keeping on and staying positive when your peers are getting offers from simply applying online and one or two interviews...

 

[iamlowsound]

Move to Alberta, you will have a job in no time. I was out there for less than a week and I had at least 4 job offers, and I wasn't even looking for a job. As for the current situation in the engineering fields, diploma>degree. Pay is about the same (at least in Canada) and places hire people with diplomas before degrees because they usually have a better understanding of how to do the job.

lowsound

lowsound

 

[Fontaine]

what the hell kind of school did you go to that doesn't do CAD?

I'm a year and a half away from graduating from petroleum engineering and i did cad in my first year. Did you have any work-terms (co-op positions)??

 

[eedre]

what the hell kind of school did you go to that doesn't do CAD?

I'm a year and a half away from graduating from petroleum engineering and i did cad in my first year. Did you have any work-terms (co-op positions)??

Well, like I said earlier. It's not so much CAD for EE's. I have used and designed circuits in OrCAD (although our university had a nasty habit of making staple EE and CE programs unavailable in most of the labs). I really just wish they had a program in PLC Programming. There's a HUGE market for entry level maintenance managers in automation/manufactring/industry that we're missing out on because so many other schools offer it.

 

[Fontaine]

Well, like I said earlier. It's not so much CAD for EE's. I have used and designed circuits in OrCAD (although our university had a nasty habit of making staple EE and CE programs unavailable in most of the labs). I really just wish they had a program in PLC Programming. There's a HUGE market for entry level maintenance managers in automation/manufactring/industry that we're missing out on because so many other schools offer it.

anyway you can do some basic cad programs to kind of boost up your qualifications a bit?

 

[eedre]

anyway you can do some basic cad programs to kind of boost up your qualifications a bit?

I don't know how much a CAD suite costs, but I'm sure I can't afford it.

 

[Johnny Crab]

Yeah, if only there were a 4-year practical trade school.

There is and it's called "Entry Level" where you get paid decently to do really mundane stuff mostly.

At petrochem plants where what you seem to desire IS used a LOT, both (Auto)CAD and PLC's are learned from some basics and plenty of OJT(on the job training). Reprogramming a PLC to add something when you have plenty of time is one thing but doing it when the PLC shutdown a plant while "managers" breathe down your neck is another. If you want to ENJOY engineering and therefore get paid to have fun(at which point work is not really work but play) you MUST, MUST, HAVE TO....LOVE problem solving.

From experience, you CAN teach yourself the things you mentioned and even use your vacation/nights and internet/manufacturer training to educate yourself in them if they are that important. You may also do entry level design at an E&C firm for the (Auto)CAD or start as a rookie(sorry but we all are at one point) at a control system company(Allen-Bradley, Prosoft, or an integrator/sub-contractor) doing PLC programming and eventually be the "travel everywhere/startup guru".

Whatever you do, have FUN at work and search until you find it.

I feel like I wasted my money on an education. It was fun to learn about things I'll never use.

You probably won't in the long run.
I don't do a lot of integrals, find the poles and zeroes, or look for eigenvalues much anymore either.

Your degree states about you(as mine does):
You're most likely a closet math person
You can devote a lot of time to a task
You can learn a lot of stuff very fast
You can pull all-nighters getting things done that HAVE TO be
You are very good at time management
You want to know how AND why things work

 

[fdeck]

I don't know how much a CAD suite costs, but I'm sure I can't afford it.

Check out free CAD tools. For schematic entry and printed circuit layout, both Eagle (the free version) and KiCad are basically pro quality and will teach you everything that you need to know. LTSpice is free, and actually in widespread use among engineers. Many of the vendors of FPGA and microcontrollers offer free development tools. There are free MatLab clones, and the tool of choice for feedback control and DSP is in fact MatLab.

Surely one of the PLC makers offers a free development and simulation tool. Vendors provide these tools as a form of advertising, and some of them are remarkably sophisticated.

A lot of small / garage businesses, including mine, use free tools exclusively.

I get involved in the hiring of entry level engineers from time to time. Let me think of some comments to offer on that subject.

 

[eedre]

There is and it's called "Entry Level" where you get paid decently to do really mundane stuff mostly.

At petrochem plants where what you seem to desire IS used a LOT, both (Auto)CAD and PLC's are learned from some basics and plenty of OJT(on the job training). Reprogramming a PLC to add something when you have plenty of time is one thing but doing it when the PLC shutdown a plant while "managers" breathe down your neck is another. If you want to ENJOY engineering and therefore get paid to have fun(at which point work is not really work but play) you MUST, MUST, HAVE TO....LOVE problem solving.

From experience, you CAN teach yourself the things you mentioned and even use your vacation/nights and internet/manufacturer training to educate yourself in them if they are that important. You may also do entry level design at an E&C firm for the (Auto)CAD or start as a rookie(sorry but we all are at one point) at a control system company(Allen-Bradley, Prosoft, or an integrator/sub-contractor) doing PLC programming and eventually be the "travel everywhere/startup guru".

I'm not much into manufacturing. But will do if offered something in it. Mostly, I'm bummed because so many companies do on campus stuff and say "lots of PLC work" or "do you have any experience in PLC programming?" No, I don't... and from what I'm gathering - most undergrads don't unless they've been fortunate enough to snag a co-op with a manufacturing or automation plant.

I'm more of a power systems guy - protective circuitry, switching power supplies, generators, inductive loading. Love the stuff. That would be my dream job. The problem is - I can't seem to get past the second interview with ANY company... let alone the coveted job at the power company! Having the sought-after skills in PLC and CAD would give me a shoe-in for those manufacturing jobs which seem to be so plentiful and the professional experience I need to further narrow down my dream position.

Just stuck in a rut right now.

 

[fdeck]

Digging back into the depths of my memory, I remembered a company called "PLC Direct" that sold a complete PLC starter kit for a hundred bucks. That was more than 10 years ago when I was thinking about using a PLC for a particular automation job, and wanted to quickly come up to speed on PLC's. But I ended up with a different technology instead.

I think the company has morphed into this outfit:

http://www.aboutplcs.com/directlogic/dl05/index.html

There's a $99 PLC. Use it to automate something in your house. A handful of switches and lamps from Mouser would complete the training package. Elsewhere on their site, they say that they have free PLC programming software. PLC's were developed sometime around the 1960's by GM as a way for engineers who were familiar with control systems based on mechanical timers and relays, to develop automatic controls using the same "ladder" diagrams. It is a brutally primitive but effective way to program a multi-tasking controller.

In most fields, entry level jobs don't involve the most sophisticated math & theory that we learned in college. Many entry level jobs involve a mixture of CAD and other activities such as troubleshooting, solving quality problems, dealing with suppliers, and so forth. Some engineers stay at this level and are happy with it. Some volunteer for roles where they can use their math & theory. Others gravitate towards management.

For better or worse, there are more companies doing manufacturing, than doing electronics manufacturing. But it sounds like you're open to a variety of opportunities. That's a blessing. Hope things work out!

 

[eedre]

Digging back into the depths of my memory, I remembered a company called "PLC Direct" that sold a complete PLC starter kit for a hundred bucks. That was more than 10 years ago when I was thinking about using a PLC for a particular automation job, and wanted to quickly come up to speed on PLC's. But I ended up with a different technology instead.

I think the company has morphed into this outfit:

http://www.aboutplcs.com/directlogic/dl05/index.html

There's a $99 PLC. Use it to automate something in your house. A handful of switches and lamps from Mouser would complete the training package. Elsewhere on their site, they say that they have free PLC programming software. PLC's were developed sometime around the 1960's by GM as a way for engineers who were familiar with control systems based on mechanical timers and relays, to develop automatic controls using the same "ladder" diagrams. It is a brutally primitive but effective way to program a multi-tasking controller.

In most fields, entry level jobs don't involve the most sophisticated math & theory that we learned in college. Many entry level jobs involve a mixture of CAD and other activities such as troubleshooting, solving quality problems, dealing with suppliers, and so forth. Some engineers stay at this level and are happy with it. Some volunteer for roles where they can use their math & theory. Others gravitate towards management.

For better or worse, there are more companies doing manufacturing, than doing electronics manufacturing. But it sounds like you're open to a variety of opportunities. That's a blessing. Hope things work out!

That's awesome! Most of the PLCs in the factories around here are made by Allen Bradley - but I assume once you know the gist of one, other controllers are pretty easy to manipulate.

We actually simulated a PID controller in school. Neat.

 

[theshadow2001]

That's awesome! Most of the PLCs in the factories around here are made by Allen Bradley - but I assume once you know the gist of one, other controllers are pretty easy to manipulate.

We actually simulated a PID controller in school. Neat.

I work with allen bradley at the moment but was used to using siemens in college. Each is similar but they all have different ways of doing ultimately the same thing.

One thing I have found is when it comes to programming all that college does is expose you to it. But it doesn't develop you to a professional standard. That will be done when you get working. So if you could find a training course offered on allen bradley plc's or any plcs that you could do, you will more than likely be up to the same standard as guys who have studied it in college from an employers perspective. Maybe better because you would be trained by guys with their fingers on the pulse of industry rather than a college lecturer. It would be expensive without a doubt but whats another few thousand on top of your student loans. Especially if it actually gets you a job.

I must say PLC programming is fun, especially when your learning it. Since it's application is generally automation, your programs get to make bits of machinery move around and do what you want. Which is more satisfying than watching numbers or a graphic on a computer screen.

As for CAD I actually worked with an electrical engineer who thought himself how to use it. He was designing electrical panels and used it to lay out the schematics and what not. However the level of CAD required to do that kind of work is not very high. Really just be able to draw a few lines make some basic shapes to represent components and insert a few templates. It's no where near what would be required by a mechanical engineer using it.