Double Bass Epiphone Upright Bass research questions

[Rebop]

Cool photo! I'm sitting here pretending that's my bass!

So what happened to all these Epi's? I've never seen another one in person besides mine...

 

[MollyKay]

Hey Molly-

Here's something you'll be interested in: I found this out-of-print book in Bird's hometown of Kansas City, Bird: Legend of Charlie Parker. The picture is the last one in the book and has no info as to who the bassist is or anything else. It could be a little challenge to identify the Epi model and player. Enjoy.

Ike

Hi Ike...whoa, I like a challenge but this may be a tall order...but I will dig around just for giggles.

Thanks!

Cool photo! I'm sitting here pretending that's my bass!

So what happened to all these Epi's? I've never seen another one in person besides mine...

Rebop...who knows where all these great basses are today. I have over 50 logged in the data base and they are scattered all over the country. I think Epi's were pretty popular in jazz and big band...or at least that is where most of my history is. There were probably less then 4,500 basses made or at least that is what I am guessing.

JPL...thanks for the information. My best guess is you have a B-5 especially if you have the etched tuners. They will be etched with a grape vine motif...if you have that...then it is a B-5 even with out seeing the Epi metal tail badge...congratulations!

And finally...here is an odd duck on eBay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120285426393&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=002

This is from my research, a late model Gibson/Epiphone...very late model. Here is the description from the Gibson catalog:

The description of a B-4-B is:

Professional

Another of those fine instruments which has helped to make Epiphone a world respected name in basses. For the Professional, the woods are carefully chosen, arched and shaped for greatest resonance and fullness of tone…straight grain spruce for the arched top, curly maple arched back and side, a fine maple neck, natural Brazilian rosewood fingerboard, and rock maple tailpiece. Inlaid black and white purfling decorates top and back. High polished brass, full plate machine heads. Adjustable end pin. George Van Eps adjustable bridge, sloping shoulders, narrow finger board. Three-quarter size.

B4B Professional, blonde finish $395

I know I am a lover of Epiphone basses…but this bass just does not do it for me. This is currently the highest number I have for the Gibson years. This bass is lacking all the things that scream Epi…where is the flamed tailpiece or the beautiful flamed wood and look at that THICK lacquer finish. It looks like it was dunked to be finished. It is even missing the wonderful two piece neck. There is only one other one like this with the oval internal tag.

Enjoy and keep the good information coming!

 

[lg3bass]

What is the serial number and where was it located? Serial numbers can be located under the scroll head on the E side (look up), at the end of the finger board or at the end pin.
[#1800, at the end of the fretboard]
What is the model number? It can be located on the metal badge on the tail piece. Model numbers are B1, B2, B3, B4 and B5.
[B5, somewhat faded]
Is your tail piece black, dark brown, blonde or highly flamed maple?
[Dark Brown]
What color is your bass?
[sunburst, very dark at the edges.]
What finish are your tuners?
[Brass, its got the vined etching, "Made by Epiphone, Model B, New York, USA"]
Are your tuners etched? This is so far only a B5 characteristic
[Yes]
Does the bass have real Black/White/Black purfling, single black pin stripe or double black pin stripe?
[Black/White/Black]
Does it have a purfling "loop" on the back of the bass below the neck?
[Yes]
Any guess as to what year the bass was made…and this is a guess.
[1940's???, Bought it from a old woman who had Lupis and couldn't play anymore.]
Any other notable characteristics to the bass?
[My only and gigging upright]

 

[Gearhead43]

I think that blonde Epi is a nice looking bass. I wouldn't turn it down.

 

[MollyKay]

lg3bass

Thanks for the information. I will add it to the data base. There has been a lot of Blonde B-4 in this serial number range. There are very few sunburst brown B-5’s. Most of the B-5’s from the pre-Gibson era (the tuners would say Kalamazoo instead of New York if it was a Gibson era bass) have been Blonde. If the serial number is #1800, it makes the manufacture date somewhere after 1952 but before 1956.

Thanks for the information and enjoy your bass.

 

[splarfage]

Thanks for taking the time to help me!

Serial # 1045 (under the scroll)

Model B-? (No markings on the dark brown tailpiece; Gruhn thinks it's a B-4)

Color: dark brown with a sight sunburst

Brass etched tuners (flowers,Epiphone NY, model B)

Purfling is BWB with the loop

I'm guessing early to mid 40's.

More information and pix at: Invalid Link Removed

Any light you could shed on this bass would be helpful. Thanks in advance for your time!

jf

 

[Ike Harris]

Hi Ike...whoa, I like a challenge but this may be a tall order...but I will dig around just for giggles.

Answering my own question here, partially anyways, with more clues. It's Curly Russell. Went back into the same book and found two more pictures from the same Bird gig - same clothes, same stage, and adding Miles into the mix. 2nd pic has a side view of the bass. Looks blond to me, will let others guess as to the model. Other bassists pictured throughout the book are, Mingus, George Divuvier, Tommy Potter, Ray Brown, Red Callendar, and some unidentified ones. Judging from the discography, Russell and Potter shared bass duties with Parker from about 1945-1950. A real treasure of a find for $5.

Ike

 

[MollyKay]

What is the serial number and where was it located? Serial numbers can be located under the scroll head on the E side (look up), at the end of the finger board or at the end pin.
[#1800, at the end of the fretboard]

Hey lg3bass...could you look at the serial number for me again. Your post indicated it was #1800 at the end of the fingerboard. It is the actual number #1800 or in the 1800's...it is a small, but important detail.

Thanks!

 

[MollyKay]

Thanks for taking the time to help me!

Serial # 1045 (under the scroll)

Model B-? (No markings on the dark brown tailpiece; Gruhn thinks it's a B-4)

Color: dark brown with a sight sunburst

Brass etched tuners (flowers,Epiphone NY, model B)

Purfling is BWB with the loop

I'm guessing early to mid 40's.

More information and pix at: Invalid Link Removed

Any light you could shed on this bass would be helpful. Thanks in advance for your time!

jf

Hey JF,

Thanks for the post…I am not an expert…but here are my guesses.

• The serial number under the scroll head is correct for this early model.
  
  
• My guess is a B-5 not a B-4. All basses with the etched tuners (grapevine motif) with a loop on the back have been B-5’s. Did you look at your Epi tail badge really close…the die stamped numbers can become worn with time? Only the very earliest basses did not have the model number stamped on the tail badge. The B-5 die stamp should be on the tail badge BUT NOT on the tuners. The tuners only say B- and the number was not entered.
  
  
• The B/W/B purfling with the loop is correct for this early model

My guess for a year of manufacture…this gets a little difficult…but my guess is after 1942 but before 1948. I have yet to establish if Epi discontinued making basses during the war so for now this is a wide range guess.

There are a few interesting characteristics on your bass…the sunburst is an “X” pattern where later Epi sunburst are more dark edges and light center or what I call a “cowboy” sunburst…like the cowboy guitars of the 1950’s. Also the neck repair with the button is similar to a neck repair on a bass George Gruhn has for sale right now. He names the neck repair as being done by Bill Baldock, I don’t know if there is a Nashville connection for your bass or not.

I am finding Epiphone basses were popular for jazz and swing music. Many of the basses that have family history were used for these genres of music.

Keep the great information coming…OH…give your Epi a hug from me…it sure is a nice one…and definitely a looker for me…nice patina finish.

Enjoy

 

[MollyKay]

Answering my own question here, partially anyways, with more clues. It's Curly Russell. Went back into the same book and found two more pictures from the same Bird gig - same clothes, same stage, and adding Miles into the mix. 2nd pic has a side view of the bass. Looks blond to me, will let others guess as to the model. Other bassists pictured throughout the book are, Mingus, George Divuvier, Tommy Potter, Ray Brown, Red Callendar, and some unidentified ones. Judging from the discography, Russell and Potter shared bass duties with Parker from about 1945-1950. A real treasure of a find for $5.

Ike

Hey Ike…glad you got me off the hook. My knowledge of jazz music history is pretty thin, I was an art major. I’m not sure I could have dug this up, but thanks for the follow up.

As far as a guess on the bass…there are a lot of Blonde B-4’s during this time 1945-1950. It could be a B-5, but my guess is a B-4. If I had a good picture of the tuners or the back of the bass I could probably nail it. The more I learn about these fine old basses the less I actually know.

Recently I found …what I believe…to be a really early first year Epiphone. It has the three piece neck like Steve had described but no tail badge or of highly stylized F holes that you can use to identify an Epi. It DID have a really cool art deco Epiphone decal at the base of the neck on the back. I am going to take pictures of it next time I get a chance to see it at a local jam. I think it is the earliest example of an Epiphone upright bass I have seen in person. The top has begun to sink but it is still in mighty fine condition for 69 years old. I also now know Epiphone used the enamel tail badge on their guitar head stock…so the tail badge on an Epi upright bass could also be used on their guitars…interesting.

Thanks all, I appreciate your willingness to share your Epiphone pictures and information with me. It is all good.

 

[splarfage]

MK,

Thanks for your prompt response.

After close scrutiny, the tailpiece badge has no markings besides the brand. Does this bring it closer to a "pre-war" model? Do you think it could even be one of the early B-5 brown sunbursts you mentioned earlier?

Your comment about jazz and swing is most likely accurate as the fingerboard shows heavy wear on the Bb, Eb, F, and Ab stops (common horn keys).

It's quite possible this bass has a Nashville connection; I live only 5 hours away. I am very interested in the "pedigree" of this bass, I'd be happy to provide high-quality pix of any part of the bass should you desire.

Thanks again, you are quite a resource!

jf

 

[MollyKay]

JF…you are very welcome.

I can’t give you much more then I have in regards to the “pedigree” of your bass…you have to due that digging on your own. As far as pre-war…until I can find the “line in the sand” with serial numbers it is merely a guess. I have two sand lines…bass # 493 is a 1941 and bass number #1430 is 1950…this is based on family history from original owners. Other then that I am dancing a very grey line. If I can ever dig up some factory records or accurate first hand history maybe I can narrow the years…but for now it is the best I can do. Your pictures on your web site were very good…I’m not sure more detail pictures would reveal anything else. The only other clue would be look inside the bass for repair tags or dates. I had one bass that had the owners name and purchase date written long ways on the sound post…that was a real find!

Enjoy your Epi…it is a purdy one.

 

[brew44123]

Hi MollyKay,

I have B5 #1562 stamped on the head alongside the E-tuner. It has a blonde plywood top with what looks like curly maple sides/back. Brass hardware (Stamped NY). Tailpiece is dark brown with the original white & gold badge, and it does have the "loop" on the back. I was going to take and include pics, but the camera is not cooperating. Perhaps another day. Someone on the Epiphone site thinks that it dates back to '48-ish, but nothing definite.
I rather like my Epi! Very nice tone, but just a bit on the light side; it lacks that "big" bottom-end that sounds so good underneath fiddles and banjos. Set-up and strings forthcoming
Hope that helps you with your quest. If you have anything further for me, thanks in advance!
Brew
(*Clever quote confiscated by Dept. of Homeland Security.*)

 

[MollyKay]

I continue to work on my Epiphone history and bass model research. Below is a slide show that shows close up photos of the characteristics of the B-1, B-2, two B-4's one early and one later model and two B-5's one an early Epi and one a later Gibson/Epi. I am really able to study the subtle differences in all the models with such fine basses.

Enjoy the show...and thanks for all your efforts!

http://s318.photobucket.com/albums/...Basses/?albumview=slideshow&direction=reverse

 

[MT Spaces]

Hey MollyKay ..... Did you see this ebay listing for some original Gibson - Epiphone bass molds for sale? Only $2000 "Buy It Now" ..... and you could be making your own basses (and cellos) from scratch ..... http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-Epiphone...253425605QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item300253425605 .
I'll add the text and some photos since the ebay ad will disappear after someone snaps these up .

P.S. Excellent Epiphone slide show you put together there !! I just got home from our regular Tuesday nite bluegrass jam. I played "Reds" The Gibson - Epiphone B-5 #392 I got from you for a couple hours .... He done good and we both had fun !

"origional assembly molds for Gibson & epiphone standup bass & Cello
archtop steam molds* and patterns
TRUE GIBSON HISTORY !
4 sets total - 2 upright bass & 2 - cellos
I repair guitars and other stringed instruments,and admit i'm not an expert on these.
the dimentions are as follows:
Gibson bass: height-44" upper bout-20.25" lower bout-25.25"* depth-7.25"
Epiphone Bass: height-44" upper bout-20" lower bout-25.5" depth-7.75:
I'm not sure whats what on the cello brands
One has an upper bout of 13.75" lower bout-17.25" depth-4.25"
the other has an upper bout of 13.5" lower bout-17" depth-4.25"
I will have to calculate shipping to be paid by buyer and will ship fed-x freight.
Or you can do a pick-up** call for questions or details THEN BID.
all sales final no returns . I accept paypal or U.S.P.S. money orders only,
unless you make previous arrangements
(269) 569 - 8231
I am located in south west michigan
GOOD LUCK BIDDERS !!! "

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Bob, those are very cool! What an interesting piece of bass history they have leaning against the garage!

 

[Rebop]

Cool slide show. Interesting to see the subtle changes over the years. IMO they should have stuck with the original slimmer F-holes.

 

[MollyKay]

Hey MollyKay ..... Did you see this ebay listing for some original Gibson - Epiphone bass molds for sale? Only $2000 "Buy It Now" ..... and you could be making your own basses (and cellos) from scratch ..... http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-Epiphone...253425605QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item300253425605 .
I'll add the text and some photos since the ebay ad will disappear after someone snaps these up .

P.S. Excellent Epiphone slide show you put together there !! I just got home from our regular Tuesday nite bluegrass jam. I played "Reds" The Gibson - Epiphone B-5 #392 I got from you for a couple hours .... He done good and we both had fun !

Howdy Bob…cool stuff here…what a find this would be for someone who could do a re-issue of the Epi like Arnold has done with the American Standard. The old original patterns are a big leap in that direction…I had missed these on eBay. We have been jamming at the Gettysburg festival…no internet connection there…blissful jamming for five straight days…give Reds a hug from me.

 

[Ike Harris]

It was my understanding that once the company was sold to Gibson, who wanted Epi primarily for the bass design, some irate employees went in and destroyed the bass molds. Then Gibson came out with it's violin shape bass which didn't really seem to take off. The collection of pics is a little confusing with the cello-bass dimensions, but I finally figured out there are two pics with the bass molds. The mold on the right looking like the smaller gamba shape that Epiphone sports and the Gibson is the left one with the pronounced violin corners, and the others pics are the cello molds(all violin shape). Someone correct me on those points if I'm wrong.

It would be great, though, to have newer version of the Epi out there to choose from in addition to the Kay/Englehardt and New Standard remakes, for someone who likes the smaller size and nifty looks.

Ike

 

[LouisF]

Kolstein's has 10 (ten!) vintage Gibson basses for sale. Description below. Anyone know where they came from?

LF


B2830
Vintage Gibson Carved Bass Violin
Made by the Gibson Guitar Company, Kalamazoo Michigan USA circa 1938

* 3/4 size, violin cornered, round back model
* Top table is a two piece sectional table of medium grain spruce.
* Back table is a two piece sectional table of moderately flamed maple.
* Ribs: maple veneer
* Neck & Scroll are both original of plainer grained maple.
* Gears: Baker style individual brass gears
* Varnish: deep reddish brown
* This vintage collectable Gibson Bass is the same model bass that the late Jazz great Bassist George Duvivier played. A truly great sounding Bass with fine orchestral and jazz qualities.
* OBL: 43-1/2"
* UB: 21"
* CB: 14-1/2"
* LB:25-1/2"