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EQing a [somewhat] large band

KingRazor

KingRazor

Jun 4, 2010
6,747
415
37
Beaverton, Oregon USA
#1
The worship team at my church has:
  • 1-2 lead vocalists
  • 1-3 background vocalists (all individually mic'd)
  • 1-3 guitars (2 electric, 1 acoustic)
  • 2 keyboards (electric piano and synth)
  • 1 electric bass
  • drum kit with kick, snare, two high toms, two floor toms (2 tom mics total), and like 8 cymbals (two overhead mics)
Every channel has a 4 band EQ with two parametric mids and a variable filter control.

What I've been doing so far:

I have a high pass filter applied to every input at the following frequencies:

Vocals: 180-250Hz
Guitars,Synth,Keys: 80-125Hz
Toms/Snare: 80-150Hz
Overheads: 350Hz
Bass: 60Hz
Kick: 40Hz

I have tried a variety of EQ settings for each instrument, with mixed results.

With vocals, I apply nearly all boosts or cuts within the 1-7KHz range. Attempting to either increase clarity, decrease harshness, decrease nasally tones, or add brightness.

With the keys, I tend to boost the highs (around 10KHz), but try to carve space for the vocals.

The guitarists have mic'd amps with their own EQ settings and I don't tend to adjust them from the board much unless I notice an issue (sometimes the treble can get very harsh to my ears, so I'll cut it some).

With the bass, I try to add clarity by boosting in the mid range, with mixed results. I'm rarely happy with the tone.

With the kick, I try to get some "snap" in there, but not too much. I have had varying success with this depending on EQ settings, who is drumming, and any number of other reasons.

I'm not a complete noob when it comes to EQ, but most of what I have learned has not been from experience, but rather from reading EQ tips online. Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to really train my ear to recognize each frequency. It's a slow process which I hope to get through soon.

I do know some of the more obvious things: cutting low end can reduce muddiness and boom. Boosting high end can add brightness, clarity, harshness, etc. Boosting mids on the bass can help notes cut through, and so on.

I also know that you can't crowd narrow frequency ranges. If too many instruments are boosted at 400Hz, some of them will be masked.

For a long time I was learning how to EQ instruments and vocals independently, to sound good on their own. What I need to know now is how to EQ instruments and vocals so they all mesh together and don't step all over each other.

But, it seems like quite the task when there are so many instruments that operate within the same frequency range.

How do you make three guitars, two keyboards, a bass, a drum kit and five vocalists all play nice with each other?
 
#2
KingRazor said:
The worship team at my church has:
  • 1-2 lead vocalists
  • 1-3 background vocalists (all individually mic'd)
  • 1-3 guitars (2 electric, 1 acoustic)
  • 2 keyboards (electric piano and synth)
  • 1 electric bass
  • drum kit with kick, snare, two high toms, two floor toms (2 tom mics total), and like 8 cymbals (two overhead mics)
Every channel has a 4 band EQ with two parametric mids and a variable filter control.

What I've been doing so far:

I have a high pass filter applied to every input at the following frequencies:

Vocals: 180-250Hz
Guitars,Synth,Keys: 80-125Hz
Toms/Snare: 80-150Hz
Overheads: 350Hz
Bass: 60Hz
Kick: 40Hz

I have tried a variety of EQ settings for each instrument, with mixed results.

With vocals, I apply nearly all boosts or cuts within the 1-7KHz range. Attempting to either increase clarity, decrease harshness, decrease nasally tones, or add brightness.

With the keys, I tend to boost the highs (around 10KHz), but try to carve space for the vocals.

The guitarists have mic'd amps with their own EQ settings and I don't tend to adjust them from the board much unless I notice an issue (sometimes the treble can get very harsh to my ears, so I'll cut it some).

With the bass, I try to add clarity by boosting in the mid range, with mixed results. I'm rarely happy with the tone.

With the kick, I try to get some "snap" in there, but not too much. I have had varying success with this depending on EQ settings, who is drumming, and any number of other reasons.

I'm not a complete noob when it comes to EQ, but most of what I have learned has not been from experience, but rather from reading EQ tips online. Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to really train my ear to recognize each frequency. It's a slow process which I hope to get through soon.

I do know some of the more obvious things: cutting low end can reduce muddiness and boom. Boosting high end can add brightness, clarity, harshness, etc. Boosting mids on the bass can help notes cut through, and so on.

I also know that you can't crowd narrow frequency ranges. If too many instruments are boosted at 400Hz, some of them will be masked.

For a long time I was learning how to EQ instruments and vocals independently, to sound good on their own. What I need to know now is how to EQ instruments and vocals so they all mesh together and don't step all over each other.

But, it seems like quite the task when there are so many instruments that operate within the same frequency range.

How do you make three guitars, two keyboards, a bass, a drum kit and five vocalists all play nice with each other?
Click to expand...

Assuming that you're only changing the EQ on the mixer inputs, maybe you need to see what's happening in each channel before making these adjustments. RoomEQ Wizard is a free download that has RTA, so you can see the audio spectrum when an input signal is sent to the computer and you'll see major peaks that could be causing problems.

Your HP filters are kind of high for a few of those and it may be costing some fullness. Keep it neutral- boosting
10KHz will be like sonic lasers and it will be very fatiguing. Look into 'psycho-acoustics' to find out what frequencies affect the sound and in which ways. Also, look for a book called 'The Master Handbook of Acoustics' by F.Alton Everest. It covers all of this in great detail.

Try to cut, rather than boost.

The house curve shouldn't be changed, but a lot of sound guys mess with them endlessly, anyway, in hopes of "getting their sound" without realizing that the house sound should remain the same unless a change in environment occurs.
 
#4
1958Bassman said:
Assuming that you're only changing the EQ on the mixer inputs, maybe you need to see what's happening in each channel before making these adjustments. RoomEQ Wizard is a free download that has RTA, so you can see the audio spectrum when an input signal is sent to the computer and you'll see major peaks that could be causing problems.

Your HP filters are kind of high for a few of those and it may be costing some fullness. Keep it neutral- boosting
10KHz will be like sonic lasers and it will be very fatiguing. Look into 'psycho-acoustics' to find out what frequencies affect the sound and in which ways. Also, look for a book called 'The Master Handbook of Acoustics' by F.Alton Everest. It covers all of this in great detail.

Try to cut, rather than boost.

The house curve shouldn't be changed, but a lot of sound guys mess with them endlessly, anyway, in hopes of "getting their sound" without realizing that the house sound should remain the same unless a change in environment occurs.
Click to expand...

I don't mess with the EQ on the mains.

The board has a built in RTA.

Which ones are filters are set too high, would you say?

Most of what I've read about EQ talks about the affect that boosting certain frequencies will have, not a lot of info out there about where to cut (other than filtering out low end).

There are a number of books I plan on purchasing soon, that acoustics book is one of them.

@Jimbob Jones: What do you mean by listening to my sources?

If you're talking about listening to each instrument flat before applying any EQ, I have done this with each instrument more than once. If I feel I'm getting too far off track, I'll often go back to completely flat and starting over.
 
#5
KingRazor said:
I don't mess with the EQ on the mains.

The board has a built in RTA.

Which ones are filters are set too high, would you say?

Most of what I've read about EQ talks about the affect that boosting certain frequencies will have, not a lot of info out there about where to cut (other than filtering out low end).

There are a number of books I plan on purchasing soon, that acoustics book is one of them.
Click to expand...

I understand what you mean about reading a lot of info on boosting and not a lot on cutting, but to my ear, cutting has definitely proven much more effective than boosting because it does not color the singer's voice and helps reduce feedback), so here is a general guide of cutting frequencies (most info taken out of Live Sound Reinforcement by Scott Hunter Stark and while I have not mixed with instruments yet, I have used the tips he provides for vocal mixing):

100-160Hz- cut to reduce boominess
160-250Hz- cut to reduce muddiness/muffle
250-600Hz- cut to reduce "cloudiness"
800Hz-2kHz- cut to reduce blary/hard-sounding vocals
2kHz-6kHz- cut to reduce edge, bite, over-clarity, reduce fatigue
6kHz-12kHz- cut to reduce breathiness/sibilance

I can also post additional information if you'd like, but like I said before, I have only mixed vocals and therefore, I cannot guarantee that the info provided for instruments is 100% correct. I would definitely recommend adding this book to your list though. Hope this helps!
 
#6
How are you building your mixes? Do you do soundcheck, if so how does it usually go? One thing I like to do is build the mix by starting with drums and bass, once they aree locked in and sounding good, I'll work on the vocals, then the rest. That way you've got a solid foundation and a you can build the rest of the instruments around the voice.

You're doing good by setting the Low-cut filters, I'd personally set the overheads high pass filter at 500hz or more.

"How do you make three guitars, two keyboards, a bass, a drum kit and five vocalists all play nice with each other?"

Besides EQ, you have to use Panning, Remember:
Bass Drum, Bass Guitar and lead Vocals go in the center. Pan the rest according to your taste.
 
#7
We don't really do a "sound check", it's a band practice. I use this time to get my settings figured out. I'd like to do a sound check beforehand, but there's not enough time.

I've stayed away from panning much. Our mains are located on opposite sides of the room, even a little panning can make an instrument or vocal sound much lower in one speaker than the other.

I've tried starting with the bass and kick as well as starting with vocals. I spend more time on instruments I have more control over (have very little control over the snare, cymbals and bass).
 
#11
also (in my club/bar band experience) sometimes twelve keyboard players and forty-seven guitar players at the same time just doesn't sound good, especially if they're not tightly arranged or really listening so the players keep out of each other's way and don't smother the vocals.

no amount of EQ tricks will fix what is essentially an arrangement/performance problem.
 
#13
walterw said:
also (in my club/bar band experience) sometimes twelve keyboard players and forty-seven guitar players at the same time just doesn't sound good, especially if they're not tightly arranged or really listening so the players keep out of each other's way and don't smother the vocals.

no amount of EQ tricks will fix what is essentially an arrangement/performance problem.
Click to expand...

Fewer instruments would make this easier, but changing the arrangement isn't going to happen, so I want to learn to do the best I can with what I've got.
 
#14

KingRazor said:
Vocals: 180-250Hz
With vocals, I apply nearly all boosts or cuts within the 1-7KHz range. Attempting to either increase clarity, decrease harshness, decrease nasally tones, or add brightness.
Click to expand...
Doing good there. To clean things up you might let the lead singer carry the sibilants and roll the highs back a bit for the BGV’s. Your HP frequency is good for vocals; if a male singer has an especially low or boomy voice, you might push the HP higher. Also, you might push the HP higher for the BGV’s than for the lead singer. You can see this technique on many recordings – the lead singer sounds “big,” the BGVs sound “thin.”


Guitars,Synth,Keys: 80-125Hz
With the keys, I tend to boost the highs (around 10KHz), but try to carve space for the vocals.
Click to expand...
Nope. Way too high. Keys have a more “mellow” tone that can easily get lost in the mix, especially if they’re using a piano sound. What they need is a bit of boost in the 2-4 kHz range to cut through. Use your parametric EQ’s frequency knob, with a wide-ish bandwidth (1/3 to 2/3-octave) and boosted a few dB, to “fish” for the frequency that makes them jump out.

I’d HP all keys and guitars at 125, if not higher. Let them get down to 80 and they’re conflicting with the drums and bass.


Bass: 60Hz
Kick: 40Hz
With the bass, I try to add clarity by boosting in the mid range, with mixed results. I'm rarely happy with the tone.

With the kick, I try to get some "snap" in there, but not too much. I have had varying success with this depending on EQ settings, who is drumming, and any number of other reasons.
Click to expand...
I’d say you’ve got those HP’s backwards. There’s no kick drum in the world with fundamentals that low. According to the folks at the Pro Sound Web’s Lab Lounge, the “kick in the chest” frequency for kick drums is 80 Hz. No reason to let anything much lower than that get through.

I’d also get more aggressive with the “snap” of the beater on the head. That’ll make the kick more readily heard, and you won’t need so much low-end “umph” trying to make up in “feel” what you can’t “hear.” Again, you can use the parametric EQ’s frequency knob to “fish” for the right frequency.

I wouldn’t high-pass the bass guitar. Basically, the system probably doesn’t do much below 40 Hz anyway, even if you have subs. If you feel the bass is too muddy or “loose” at the lowest frequencies, you might try a low shelving filter to tone things down just enough to tighten it up, yet still let the lowest notes of a 5-string to dig down.

As far as the bass guitar tone, that’s not your job. That’s the job of the player, his instrument and the way he adjusts its settings. Your job as the sound man is to make sure it’s EQ’d to where all the notes from the lowest to highest cut through the mix, and that’s that. This is where high-passing everything else comes into play, but even then it’s easy for the high notes to get lost in the mix, as the bass is then up in everyone else’s territory. This might require some boost in the 300-400 Hz range.


Toms/Snare: 80-150Hz
Click to expand...
With toms the issue isn’t so much the high pass as it is the resonating “hot” frequency most have that rings (i.e., is slow to decay). The key there is to use the parametric EQ to find that “hot spot” for each tom and tone it down (same technique as described above, only with a somewhat narrow filter [I’d suggest 1/3-octave] and cut several dB). You say you don’t get to do a sound check, but maybe you could ask the drummer to come up early or stay late one day to help you out.


Overheads: 350Hz
Click to expand...
That’s way too high if the purpose of the overheads is to pick up the cymbals. If that’s the case wouldn’t go lower than 1-2 kHz. Of course, if the OH is also picking up the toms (i.e. they aren’t close-mic’d), that’s another story...

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt



Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club
Big Cabs Club #23
Pedulla Club #45

 
#15

KingRazor said:
How do you make three guitars, two keyboards, a bass, a drum kit and five vocalists all play nice with each other?
Click to expand...
I think here we get to the real heart of your problem: Basically, they have wa-a-a-y too many replicated instruments on stage. If those guitar players are all mindlessly dumb-strumming in unison, and both keyboards are filling up every space of every measure with a wall of notes and sustained chords, basically you’re trying to mix white noise.

As walter noted, it’s a basic law of musical physics that the more instruments you have on stage, the more things have to be pared back and “choreographed” – i.e. arranged. You just can’t have everyone playing full-tilt-boogie at the same time, like they would (rightly) do if they were the only instrument on the stage. If they’re like what I’ve seen in most churches, your people probably need to learn some basic arrangement techniques, like:

  • There’s no musical law that says each and every instrument must to be utilized from the first note to the last throughout the entirety song. Or that every instrument is even needed in every song! Any musician who’s played in high school band or orchestra knows these things.
  • Generally speaking, one guitar or keyboard should anchor the song, especially the verses, with others sprinkling “accents” here and there. If the guitar players all want to play at the same time, they need to work out distinctive parts that complement each other, like can be heard in this song.
  • “Accents” include techniques like doing a bit of “noodling” during rests in the vocal part. Guitars and keys could take turns doing this - back and forth during a verse, or perhaps one doing one verse, and the other doing the next verse.
  • Various instruments can try laying out during the verses and then falling in on the choruses. In fact this is a great technique, for the arrangement to remain subdued on the verses and then “get big” on the choruses, as can be heard in Link Removed.
  • Or, various instrument can play for only part of the verse, or part of the chorus. Again, there’s no law that every instrument must play all the way through every song!
Little tricks like these make songs sound like music instead of a free-for-all. Basically, your musicians need to think, “What can I do to enhance this song, to add to the “feel” and/or make it more interesting?” instead of mindlessly churning out a wall of chords.

If your people are unable to work on their arrangements, or at least do a rotation schedule to pare down the number of redundant instruments on the stage, then as I said you’re basically mixing white noise. If that’s the case, don’t be too hard on yourself: There’s only so much you can do as the sound man to make something like that sound good.
t.gif


Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt



Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club
Big Cabs Club #23
Pedulla Club #45

 
#16
Thanks for the tips guys. Lots of good info here.

While the arrangement could always be improved, I think, it's not quite as bad as I believe I've made it sound.

When we have two electrics on stage, one plays lead and one plays rhythm, so thankfully, they're playing pretty different parts. Sometimes we have an acoustic guitar, either as the third or second guitar. The acoustic has a pretty different tone to it than the electrics (for obvious reasons), so it tends to separate better.

Believe it or not, we have had great sound even with the full band all playing. My goal is to have it sound great, or at least "good", all the time. Obviously, there's only so much I can do, but I want to do what I can the best way I can. :)

With the keyboards, the piano is pretty necessary for most of the music we play. In some songs it's the main event, in others it's just background, but it's a big part of the band (and our senior Pastors really like piano...). The synth, on the other hand, could easily just be setup above the keyboard and played by the same person (which it was for a while). The synth often just sounds like noise so I have it very low in the mix until there comes a part in a song where it makes a good "filler" when not much else is going on.
 
#18
projectMalamute said:
You have an RTA? Can you patch it to the PFL path?

You might find watching it very illuminating. You should be able to see where the actual fundamental of the kick is, for instance. Or where the snap is. Or where the lowest fundamentals from a vocalist are for setting a HPF.
Click to expand...

I can set the RTA to PFL, yes. That's generally how I have it.

The problem is that I can only see volume levels at each frequency. I can't really tell what part of the spectrum sounds like what.

For example, if a channel sounds really harsh, I can't tell where the harshness is coming from based on the RTA, because all it tells me is how loud or quiet each frequency is.
 
#19
Razor... (I'm assuming this is a continuation from prior posts)

I'll kind of take a different approach and opinion.

Can you set everything flat and then add pieces one by one?

Many times in worship environments I've noticed that many issues are from a lack of "priorities" .. ... in most teams, there's one single primary vocal and one single primary chord instrument......... what is perceived as eq issues commonly can be primary mix issues.

-----

When called to do a chruch sound revamp... the first thing I require is "Production & Arrangement permission"

During this session, I'll lay down the band rules...
1-you don't have to play to be in the band
2-support Keyboards up one octave (and no left hand)
3-Bass down one octave (nothing over middle C
4-Background vocals may need to wear ear plugs to hear themselves
5-If you can't hear the primary chord and vocal -- turn down.
6-Zero discussion about "your tone" (for a month)

I know this will sound like a mean guy --- in a worship setting many times people need to learn bandsmanship ---- I've yet to meet a church sound guy (for non career sound guys) that didn't looked puzzled when I said "slotting"

Most times I'll strip a band down and only add people in one at a time.

---
From my meager worship experience of decades, folks pray for a miracle instead of applying what's laid out in the Yamaha book --- it's the rare annointed singer/leader who can define "joyful noise" --- most throw a nutty mix at the sound crew and expect them to fix broken

Commonly to get a good sounding room, the acoustics and gear placement is before eq.

Most worship environments break the sound sins.
 
#20
Oh yea...

Another note... for many worship settings, it commonly helps to take people out of the mix (if you can't convince all to go ampless DI/IEM)

Meaning for backup vocals, their natural voice is all that's needed for the worship environment etc.... same goes for woodwinds,... many drums... grand pianos etc.... boosting the primary commonly cleans this up

And yes... you will get complaints from the musicians that they can't "hear me" your audeince will give you compliments.
 

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