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EQing a [somewhat] large band

I've started from scratch on my mixes before. I don't usually have time though.

I'm not in a leadership position at all, I'm at the same level as the musicians (and under the band leader and worship pastor). I have no problem with this, but it means I can't tell people what to do, I can only make suggestions.

That being said, any musician who isn't the band leader or worship pastor also can't tell me what to do, so I only have to take direction from the highest authorities, which is nice. I've also never had a random audience member complain to me, but even if they did, it's not my problem. If the senior Pastor complains, that's a problem.

The bass players do tend to stick to playing the lowest notes. The bassists at our church are pretty much set.

With guitar players, volume control is a bigger issue than them playing all together, honestly. If they maintain good volume levels, I'm perfectly fine with them just strumming away on chords.

Our piano player is not a professional, and she does tend to stick to the middle of the keyboard when she could venture out a bit and play some of the higher and lower ends of the piano. Hopefully this is something she can do more as she grows as a musician.

The only member of the band that's really concerned about "their" tone is the band leader, and he's pretty understanding. If "his" tone isn't working, we talk it out and find something that we can both agree on. He's a great guy.

So far I don't think the background vocalists really need ear plugs, if they want to get some, that's their prerogative.

The leaders have defined their priorities: Lead vocal on top. At all times. Lead vocal should be clear enough that anyone can walk into the room and look at the stage and immediately know who is singing lead.

After that would be backing vocals and keys. Drums and bass should be providing a solid rhythm, and signature guitar parts (e.g. solos) should be clearly heard. Everything else is to fill.
 
You may have found the real key right here: "I have it very low in the mix until there comes a part in a song where it makes a good "filler" when not much else is going on" Biggest issue may be the mix. Assuming the room EQ is good, EQ each instrument to sound best by itself and then focus on continuous dynamic mix adjustments, not a "set and ferget" mix approach. I also totally identify with your "not enough time" issue. When you have different worship team members from week to week as we do it is a constant challenge!
 
Razor...

First step is to have a hear tto heart talk with your worship leader and pastor... ask for production permission.

When I'm in this position, I start with a stripped down group (primary vocals, primary chord, bass, drums).... ONLY when I get this established and well mixed do I allow anything else up there.



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Take the time to dial in your chording/singing leader then add bass/drums... chances are during this phase you'll find out gear is setup wrong (and in the wrong location)

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Oh yea... turn off the subs --- many worship environments are not acoustically ready for them... they're normally tuckwed in corners or under hollow stages.

A Tomlin tune doesn't need a Sub Thud
 
You may have found the real key right here: "I have it very low in the mix until there comes a part in a song where it makes a good "filler" when not much else is going on" Biggest issue may be the mix. Assuming the room EQ is good, EQ each instrument to sound best by itself and then focus on continuous dynamic mix adjustments, not a "set and ferget" mix approach. I also totally identify with your "not enough time" issue. When you have different worship team members from week to week as we do it is a constant challenge!

Volume levels are the one part of my mix I am truly confident in. I have them where I want them. When I first learned how to mix, the only thing I knew how to do was adjust volume. I knew nothing about EQ or compression or anything like that. Volume is the one thing I know I can do.

That is not at all to say I can't learn a thing or two about it, but that's not what the point of this thread is.

Stage noise is a bit of an issue for us, and one that we've been working at fixing for a long time now (if we could afford IEMs for everyone, we'd have done it a long time ago). But again, that is not the point of this thread.

The point of this thread was and is for me to learn how best to EQ each instrument so that they all fit together well.

I understand that with proper arrangements and volume levels, very little EQ is necessary, and I'm not saying I need a bunch of drastic EQ changes to make things sound good. But, it's a tool I have available to me, and I want to know the best way to use it.
 
Stage noise is a bit of an issue for us, and one that we've been working at fixing for a long time now (if we could afford IEMs for everyone, we'd have done it a long time ago). But again, that is not the point of this thread.

Razor (respectfully) stage and monitor noise is part of EQ... The room will react different to speaker placement and setup.

You can do IEM for relatively cheap.... Rolls PM50 and Rolls PM351 are the lowest cost professional options.

Sound Engeering 101=You don't have to fix the noise that isn't there... this includes amps... singers... bad chords... poorly placed speakers... out of balance... sonically colliding slots
 
Razor (respectfully) stage and monitor noise is part of EQ... The room will react different to speaker placement and setup.

You can do IEM for relatively cheap.... Rolls PM50 and Rolls PM351 are the lowest cost professional options.

Sound Engeering 101=You don't have to fix the noise that isn't there... this includes amps... singers... bad chords... poorly placed speakers... out of balance... sonically colliding slots

Well, we could get individual IEMs like that, but people want to be able to hear the rest of the band as well.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "fixing noise that isn't there"?
 
Well, we could get individual IEMs like that, but people want to be able to hear the rest of the band as well.

IEMS... the normal "problem" with converting is that people hear "too much" ... not too little... We can go into IEM in a separate thread if you like.

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Can you elaborate on what you mean by "fixing noise that isn't there"?

This may be my hugest lesson (directly from a sound physicist at EV)

Worship sound is closer to recording studio than rock band.... there are a few things to point out.

1-In a worship environment you can't turn the volume up over 90-95 db without sound complaints... in a bar gig, we commonly overcome by turning up the mains.

2-I'll commonly go into a church setting, they'll claim they're "muddy" and ask teh bass player to turn down... I'd venture to say 70% of the time it's a keyboard doubling the low end...

When we turn off the subs and tell the keyboard player to devote their talent to splitting the board (strings and organ example) we're not doubling up on this sonic band.

IF there's a backup vocalist that believe they're "annointed" and really want to be heard... sometimes removing them from the band increases the quality... when they're not there, things improve.

Position a guitar amp in the wrong place (corner etc) and it may sound better... remove it and sometimes it doesn't comb with the mains.... in some instances, removing it from the mains helps keep it from booming off the corners and ceiling.

I have a project that was my most confusing... we ended up having a down-fire bass cabinet made... removing it from the mains and turning off the subs fixed the mud.

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IF you don't have audience audible monitors, then the audience won't hear them... and you don't have to EQ around them.

The easiest setup is a properly placed set of main speakers... zero amps... zero acoustic drums... zero monitors... you're in control of all factors --- when it's not there you don't have to fix it.

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My point is that you can't trust our opinions on your EQ without real information.

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Summary = if you can't make it sound good with 4 people.... it wont' happen with 8 or 10
 
I want to clarify something here:

I'm not under the impression that using the right EQ settings will magically fix any problem with my mix. I'm no fool.

I know there is no perfect EQ setting. I know that EQ will be different depending on the room you're in. I'm aware of all of this.

But I know there are guidelines to follow regarding EQ that can point me in the right direction in that area of mixing. I want to be familiar with them.

EDIT: Alright, MNAirHead, I see your point about not knowing my exact situation and therefore not knowing exactly what kind of advice to give me regarding EQ. I understand.

I've never run in to the problem of the keyboard player playing too low because she tends to stay in the middle of the keyboard. I actually wish she would venture out a little more, particularly to the upper end.

I have no issues with background vocalists. They know their place in the band, and even using a floor monitor for the background vocals really hasn't been a major issue when it comes to stage noise, it's not nearly as loud as the guitar amps or drums.

I don't think the subs are really a concern, honestly. We have the sub on an AUX send and only have the kick and bass going through it. Our worship leader likes the sub, so it's probably not going anywhere.

I would love to be rid of the guitar amps, but we have to have a way for the guitarists to hear themselves. This is one area where me and the band leader clash a bit. He wants the guitar to have a good tone, which he is convinced sounds best from a mic'd amp.

As soon as it is possible to get the bass player on IEMs, we're doing it. That bass amp is responsible for a lot of the stage noise.

I've been told they used to have V-drums back before I started attending this church (over 10 years ago). They are much, much happier with acoustic drums. That's not something that's going to change.

I don't usually worry about EQing monitors, since like I said, they aren't loud enough to really be an issue.
 
In order to give mail order EQ instructions, we'd need to see room and individual RTA readouts

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I'm not speaking down to you... it is one of the magical things about worship sound... EQ is perception

I've made thousands by understanding "perception"

Example... a traditional service is commonly more db than contemporary (yes I've RTAd it often)

One of the first things I've learned to do when "loud or boomy" is the complaint is to remove all electronic keyboards... the audience perceives thea grand piano as "prettier and quieter"

I don't have dto deal with the EQ of a synth that isn't in the mains.

Sincerely --- unsure if this makes sense... the EQ answer to keys can be to move them to a grand piano... many times this removes it from the mains (and their eq).. the saudience perceives it "sweeter"

IF we had a bass amp turned on ... then turned it off.... the RTA would change... so yes all the details add up to EQ.

Church is a different beast as the highest paying customers don't want it to get louder - barroom tricks can't be used.

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without visiting your facility we'd not know whre your EQ is happening or what is influencing the RTA and perception.
 
I've never run in to the problem of the keyboard player playing too low because she tends to stay in the middle of the keyboard. I actually wish she would venture out a little more, particularly to the upper end.


It took me years of frustration to understand slotting.

a keyboard player playing around Middle C... and an acoustic guitarist playing "cowboy chords" will double this spectrum band...

On an RTA this will show a bump in this spectrum area.

The listener can perceive this as muddy and/or loud.

The point is a sound guy dives for the faders.. when the true EQ fix may be changing the mix
 
IF you're looking for "EQ MAGIC" the short aanswer is DBX Drive rack pinked at the seat position of your biggest complaint & highest tithing parishoner.

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I"m a nerd I have am RTA, I appoint a congregant to estalblish "loud enough" and then monitor it on the RTA... some seats are too loud.. some are too boomy.. some are too quiet.. some are too tiny.... I forward the complaints to the one that defined "good"
 
I can set the RTA to PFL, yes. That's generally how I have it.

The problem is that I can only see volume levels at each frequency. I can't really tell what part of the spectrum sounds like what.

For example, if a channel sounds really harsh, I can't tell where the harshness is coming from based on the RTA, because all it tells me is how loud or quiet each frequency is.

I think it's funny now that I actually posted this, because using the RTA to find offending frequencies is EXACTLY what I have been doing lately and wow is it easy.

I mean, if I had known that EQ was this easy I'd have had better sounding mixes a long time ago. But anyway, I'm glad to know now.

I've finally done the smart thing and just unlearned everything everyone ever told me about EQing specific frequencies and have just been using the RTA to get rid of what I don't want. It's helped immensely. I have more headroom on vocals because they don't sound harsh anymore. Same with guitars (to a degree, still have a stage amp to fight).

I recommend that everyone that doesn't use an RTA already to do so.

Our church is going amp-less once we can afford to have the whole band on IEMs, and once we do I'll be able to have a lot more control over the guitars and keys and actually be able to "slot" them.

I can't believe how much I've learned just within the last few months. There is so much more to running sound than I ever imagined.