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Faital 15XL1400 for bass?

K

kucor

Aug 26, 2011
159
40
EU
#1
Hi TB, so I have this used driver I got as a gift almost a year ago, and as I finally ordered a table saw for my hobby woodworking workshop, I decided either to build n cab around it or to sell it. The speaker is big and heavy ad from specs it should be a monster but it is a subwoofer so not a perfect match for BG.

The thing is, I'm not a speaker designer and have only basic knowledge in Winisd. Second thing is, I don't need a bass cab at the moment but I enjoy building stuff.

My question is, would it be suitable for a simple bass cab as a standalone of any kind, and what size box/tuning frequency would be best match if so? I know it would lack some mids and probably needs a 5-6" mid driver but I just don't have a knowledge to design a 2-way cab.

It's a 8Ohm.

15XL1400 by FaitalPRO

thanks
 
#3
I think you will find a couple of things about this driver that are a challenge...

The first is that it will likely need a mid driver, really to reinforce what's going on between 3k - 5k. The good thing is the polars are reasonably good and uniform.

The second is that even though the claimed sensitivity is 96dB/1W/1M, if you look at the relative sensitivity curve from 50Hz - 3kHz (normally we would extend this to 5kHz, but if you use a mid you only need to look at the desired bandwidth) I think you will find that the average sensitivity is between 92dB and 93dB/1W/1M. The reason the sensitivity is lower is due to the extended Xmax, which requires additional VC height above and below the magnetic gap in order to increase power handling. The larger diameter VC and even the double-spider also hurts sensitivity a little.

It's a great driver, it's also a PA driver intended for high level reinforcement, it's also pretty heavy for a Neo driver (due to its capabilities). It also may do better in a larger box, the port diameter will need to be fairly large so there will need to be adequate box depth to accommodate a deeper port.
 
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#4
A two-way DSP poweramp like the Behringer NX6000D will make the process much easier. You can use a full-range driver like the Beyma 5G40 crossed at 500hz for your highs.

The Faital has enough xmax to work well sealed if you wanted. You can also tune it around 45hz in about 50-70 liters. WinISD usually simulates a longer port than necessary. You can cut about 1/4 off a ports length to get close enough.
 
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#5
I will add that if you don't have over 1000 watts @ 8 ohms(or don't want to buy an amp) you might consider selling it and going for bass friendly drivers. Kappalites, Faital PR300/400 series, Lavoce bass guitar drivers, and Beyma WR series would all work well with the majority of bass amps.
 
#6
I have a SS PA amp that does 900W 8ohm and a GK1001 I'm replacing with a light head but will keep it as a backup, it's a great head.
GK is "only" 500W/8ohm but conservative rated, it destroys my fearless 112 while other 500W amps can barely warm it up. Still won't be enough for this beast but will do for testing.

That Behringer looks like a great value but I can't spend that much money at the moment.

As for selling/buying another driver, actually I have a 3012LF as I plan to build a fearful 12/6 to pair with my F112, and I also have BC 8NW51-8 laying around, so maybe could pair it with this Faital. It is a 8" driver and may be a overkill so I could buy an alpha/lite 6, I will need it for the 12/6 anyway.

I would regret to sell this driver without trying to build a cab for it.



agedhorse said:
I think you will find a couple of things about this driver that are a challenge...

The first is that it will likely need a mid driver, really to reinforce what's going on between 3k - 5k. The good thing is the polars are reasonably good and uniform.

The second is that even though the claimed sensitivity is 96dB/1W/1M, if you look at the relative sensitivity curve from 50Hz - 3kHz (normally we would extend this to 5kHz, but if you use a mid you only need to look at the desired bandwidth) I think you will find that the average sensitivity is between 92dB and 93dB/1W/1M. The reason the sensitivity is lower is due to the extended Xmax, which requires additional VC height above and below the magnetic gap in order to increase power handling. The larger diameter VC and even the double-spider also hurts sensitivity a little.

It's a great driver, it's also a PA driver intended for high level reinforcement, it's also pretty heavy for a Neo driver (due to its capabilities). It also may do better in a larger box, the port diameter will need to be fairly large so there will need to be adequate box depth to accommodate a deeper port.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Yes, I realized the sensitivity will be somewhat lower than stated and I will need a lot of power to move this thing. I wouldn't aim on a portable cab here so don't mind a large enclosure. I will build the test cab from MDF as it is much cheaper.
 
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#7
500 watts RMS at 8 ohms will be fine, I would recommend about 750-800 watts as a good maximum in practice.
 
#8
Simplest way to test the output potential would be to bridge your PA into the driver and use your GK as a preamp. Be careful with the volume knob if don't have a high-pass filter. Also keep in mind that break-in time with these heavy duty drivers is real thing. It may take some time to open up.

A quick mock up cab sounds like a good plan. That B&C would pair up nicely actually. I would cross between 200-300hz. You could easily add a tweeter high-passed at 5khz with simple passive components if you decided to bi-amp in the future.

This DSP crossover would work nicely and doesn't cost much more than passive components that won't perform as well or have the versatility.
the t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini – Thomann United States
Passive crossovers require a more thorough understanding of electrical and acoustical properties to achieve good results compared to DSP. Tweeter crossovers for bass guitar applications are fairly easy but the crossover between the woofer and mid can be way off the mark if you're not familiar with crossover design.

That will give you a taste of what can be done with it. I run a similar setup with the BMS equivalent of the Faital. I can't imagine anyone needing more than what it can put out when powered to its full potential. I use half a PLD4.5 for the woofer and the other half for the mids and highs. I'm in the process of designing an even smaller box for it. Ports do get tricky at small sizes.

800w is a good maximum for safe long-term PA use applications but you do give up a bit of dynamic range that the driver is capable of. Bass guitar can be very dynamic depending on your playing style and musical taste.
 
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#9
Wow, that DSP looks great but I got a order shipped from thomann...3 hours ago:meh:

Overall sounds like a good idea. I understand that designing a passive bass/midrange crossover requires a good amount of knowledge and that's exactly why I won't go that way:D.

As for tweeter, I don't use it in my fearless so I won't be considering it, these modern mid drivers go high enough for my needs. I like linear tone in lows and low mids, without much subs or in your face high mids.

Anyway, 70L enclosure (gross) tuned to 45Hz sounds like a good idea to begin? I play 5 string bass btw.

thanks
 
#10
That'll work nicely to prototype with. WinISD Pro is a good program but Boxsim is more capable.

An easy way to check tuning without measurement gear can be done by leaning the cabinet back, put a little rice on the cone, slowly run a frequency sweep below 100hz and look for the rice to come to a near stand still. Any frequency above and below the tuning frequency will result in more movement.

Round pvc or stiff cardboard tubing are the easiest to tune.

Anywhere between 35-45hz is fine. The lower the frequency, the more the response resembles a sealed box. Make sure you have enough port area. Something like two 5" ports is a decent compromise. Ideally you want more but length can become an issue.

This will sound plenty deep and controlled for low B use.
 
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#12
Yeah it'd be perfect for sub but I wouldn't have use of it. I'd like to build something I will use, like a floor monitor or bass cab. It's way too deep and overkill for a wedge so bass cab it is.
fast slapper said:
That'll work nicely to prototype with. WinISD Pro is a good program but Boxsim is more capable.

An easy way to check tuning without measurement gear can be done by leaning the cabinet back, put a little rice on the cone, slowly run a frequency sweep below 100hz and look for the rice to come to a near stand still. Any frequency above and below the tuning frequency will result in more movement.

Round pvc or stiff cardboard tubing are the easiest to tune.

Anywhere between 35-45hz is fine. The lower the frequency, the more the response resembles a sealed box. Make sure you have enough port area. Something like two 5" ports is a decent compromise. Ideally you want more but length can become an issue.

This will sound plenty deep and controlled for low B use.
Click to expand...

Thanks, you helped me a lot. I will use plastic drain pipes, they are ca 5-6" and pretty good quality.
One more question. Should I completely enclose the BC midrange driver?
 
#13
midrange yes would be isolated in its own cavity.
which will reduce overall box volume.

i have not modeled your driver. but after modeling a zillion drivers and then working with them in real life.
ill only assume this driver likes a larger size box. so assume 3.6 to 4 cubic feet and tune can be straight at Fs at 38hz or approx 5 hz above that
basically 38 to 42 hz

2 ports can work,
but yes to get decent velocity they would have to be large
and a 5" port would probably be pretty long to get 35 to 40hz in a 4 cubic foot box.

you can also use 4x ports with 3" to 3.5" tubes and possibly get less length to fit in a box. velocity will remain low as needed from using 4 ports

this is sub type woofer basically sensitivity will be very low and looking at the inductance value of the coil highend will be low.

most likely you wont have to worry much about a crossover for the LF section and just run it fullrange and then use a sinple high pass for your midrange. after you run the woofer in a model youll get a good idea of the highend or where impedance starts to rise.
if this driver really dips in sub territory your midrange may need to even go as low as 200 to 300hz.

you can have fun with the driver. but id use it as a sub for home.
for live sound applications i wouldnt mess with 15" subs. sensitivity is to low. rather use typical 18" drivers at 97dB ish than 93 to 94 dB 15" subs

of course the great thing with drivers like this is to step away from the norm and run it sealed and have tight hard hitting bass at home or even a car
 
#14
Yes, having a fun is the main goal. I use only headphones at home and don't like loud music at all so hifi/HT sub isn't really interesting to me at this time. Actually I gave away my complete hifi system.

And as you said, for PA subs 15s are meh..
 
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#15
kucor said:
Yeah it'd be perfect for sub but I wouldn't have use of it. I'd like to build something I will use, like a floor monitor or bass cab. It's way too deep and overkill for a wedge so bass cab it is.

Thanks, you helped me a lot. I will use plastic drain pipes, they are ca 5-6" and pretty good quality.
One more question. Should I completely enclose the BC midrange driver?
Click to expand...

As Bogey says the mid will need to be completely sealed. I recommend polyurethane construction adhesive for its gap filling properties. You only need about 10liters for the mid enclosure. Fiberglass, wool, cotton, or polyester fibers should fill most of the space leaving just enough space for the mid to breathe (a few cm).

I checked the sims out for this driver. If you go larger than 70 liters you might get a peak at the tuning frequency. This will make the lows harder to EQ. At 900w one 6" port will be fine for bass use and moderate sub use if that ever comes up. I get a length of 14.8". From experience this will most likely need to be cut down to around 10" or possibly less. The walls of the box will extend the actual effective length of the port if you mount the port in a corner. This is often the only way to do it in small volumes but is beneficial in cutting down the length you need.

For round ports larger diameters are more effective than smaller ports of the same area. This is due to fluid dynamics and details that much smarter people have figured out for us.
 
#19
It looks funny on paper but in practice it works. Especially considering the info kucor provided.

If this was going to be used for very compressed mid-range heavy music playback at high volume, then I do agree a higher crossover or second mid would be a good idea. I've tried to stress out an 8" crossed at 300hz with a dedicated 1200w channel recieving boosted mids from a hot bridge pickup. Barely felt any warmth after an hour. Was hitting 125db peaks at 1m.

Nice thing with dsp is you can change things with a couple clicks if the need arises.
 

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