Fanned or Unfanned Fretless?

[BarfanyShart]

Every multiscale instrument will have a "center" where the "fret" will be straight and the scale will fan out from that point. If you kept a straight nut then the nut would be that "center" - which means your instrument wouldn't really have a center. I dont know that doing this would make the instrument unplayable, but no other multiscale instruments are designed like this, so i assume it would not be any multiscale players' preference.

 

[Lenny JG]

For drop past B, you should really just biamp it in to an 18" sub like I did. Keep the 412 for your bass. Use the sub so you don't blow up your cabinet. Bass cabs aren't subwoofers, they're loudspeakers. Check my old set upView attachment 3994602

That worked great for me. Kept my bass nice, loud, and crisp. I just kept the sub turned down a bit to keep the mud off the stage. Sounded huge

Like I stated above I was going to send all my lows to a 2x15 && a all the rest through a 4x12. Maybe though since I'm going as low as E0 I may go w/ an 18 or two instead of the 15s? What do you think?

On some bass you play on the lines. On other basses you don't. Adjust the bridge for consistent intonation across strings. There may not be enough range of adjustment to get the intonation so you play on the line, because the bass may not have been designed that way. The lines are there to quickly give you an idea of where you are, rather than for intonation.

You know what? This is really good advice that I overlooked; I was so focused on moving the top string, that I didn't think to move the other four strings to compensate! Not a bad idea.

Every multiscale instrument will have a "center" where the "fret" will be straight and the scale will fan out from that point. If you kept a straight nut then the nut would be that "center" - which means your instrument wouldn't really have a center. I dont know that doing this would make the instrument unplayable, but no other multiscale instruments are designed like this, so i assume it would not be any multiscale players' preference.

Ah so if you didn't also slant the nut the the fan would just be a progressive slant and the middle wouldn't even be straight! I get it; so what about how Ibanez uses mono rail saddles slanted at the bridge w no slanted nut?

 

[RickyT]

There's a band called Subetroth, they tune to E0 and the bass player uses a fretless Yamaha bass, 35" (I think) with Kalium 220 gauge strings.

He did a fantastic rig rundown a few years ago, if I can find it I'll post the link.

Apart from Dingwall, ESP make a 37" multi, B1005, that's probably worth a look. Not fretless though.

Good luck, I love low tunings and have a 35" set up for F#0 with .176.

Edit - I think this is the post -

New DOOM metal.

 

[Lenny JG]

There's a band called Subetroth, they tune to E0 and the bass player uses a fretless Yamaha bass, 35" (I think) with Kalium 220 gauge strings.

He did a fantastic rig rundown a few years ago, if I can find it I'll post the link.

Apart from Dingwall, ESP make a 37" multi, B1005, that's probably worth a look. Not fretless though.

Good luck, I love low tunings and have a 35" set up for F#0 with .176.

Edit - I think this is the post -

New DOOM metal.

Awesome thank you! Any advice && links/ recommendations greatly appreciated.

I love Kailums strings, in fact they're the best I've used, but their wait time && customer service is just not good.

I was using smith metal master bass string set as they have the tapered bridge like Kailums does on the 145 low, but since the pandemic that set is impossible to find! Maybe I need to go back to Kailum but have heard good things about octave 4 plus as well.

 

[nnnnnn]

Ah so if you didn't also slant the nut the the fan would just be a progressive slant and the middle wouldn't even be straight! I get it;

Yes. By definition if the strings have different scale lengths the frets (or the imaginary "frets" of a fretless whether lined or unlined) must be fanned one way or another.

so what about how Ibanez uses mono rail saddles slanted at the bridge w no slanted nut?

They're not multi-scale instruments, the nut and frets are all parallel.The slight slant at the bridge that I think you're talking about is just to optimise the saddle intonation adjustment range for each string, isn't it?

 

[singlemalt]

Come on over to the Dingwall owners thread, you’ll find plenty of multiscale fretless going on. And you’ll get answers from guys who actually own and play multiscale fretless.

The Dingwall long scales, Afterburners, Combustion, Z’s and Prima, run 37” to 34” on the five strings. The Dingwall site has an excellent spec page where you can compare up to three models at a time.

Plenty of Dingwall guys playing in lower tunings.

 

[Killing Floor]

It sounds like you might benefit from a shorter scale fretless.

 

[Lenny JG]

Yes. By definition if the strings have different scale lengths the frets (or the imaginary "frets" of a fretless whether lined or unlined) must be fanned one way or another.

They're not multi-scale instruments, the nut and frets are all parallel.The slight slant at the bridge that I think you're talking about is just to optimise the saddle intonation adjustment range for each string, isn't it?

I think you're right. Thanks!

Come on over to the Dingwall owners thread, you’ll find plenty of multiscale fretless going on. And you’ll get answers from guys who actually own and play multiscale fretless.

The Dingwall long scales, Afterburners, Combustion, Z’s and Prima, run 37” to 34” on the five strings. The Dingwall site has an excellent spec page where you can compare up to three models at a time.

Plenty of Dingwall guys playing in lower tunings.

Will do thanks yo!

It sounds like you might benefit from a shorter scale fretless.

I think the opposite actually lol

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Like I stated above I was going to send all my lows to a 2x15 && a all the rest through a 4x12. Maybe though since I'm going as low as E0 I may go w/ an 18 or two instead of the 15s? What do you think?

That's what I'm saying. Bass speakers aren't subwoofers. The max frequency they can produce is about 40hz for low tuned ported cabs. At like a 10db roll off. Your 412 will actually handle more than your 215, better. There's more speaker surface. With your set up right now, it would probably sound a lot better just running it all 2ohms without a crossover. You need a subwoofer to really gain anything. Not a bass cab.

Although, what's your purpose for this whole rig anyway? Your info says you're touring. Are you playing backyard shows at friends houses, and little dive bars with no house support? Because when you're on stage, your rig is just for looks. Your signal goes to house, and they mix you in through the PA (loudspeakers and subs). Or, is it all for your rehearsal spot? Or what?

You really just need a little wedge monitor in front of you, or ear buds. The audience can't hear your rig anyway. I've always just tried to get where I could hear the snare, and thats been good enough to go. House turns you down so far, you can never hear yourself without in ears.

Okay, back to topic. Hahahaha. Yeah, like I said before though...you'd most likely benefit from a 35" scale bass. If you want it fretless, just go with a standard scale. The bridge being staggered, like on a monorail bridge, is for intonation. It has nothing to do with scale length. You still set it up, and play it the same. But, for an un lined fretless, you set your intonation by ear and memory. If your intonation is off, its because your finger's in the wrong spot. Ever so slightly. Alright?

 

[NeonVomit]

So I want to go to E0 standard, so one step lower than that, but on a six string. I'm thinking a modified srf706?

How important to you is the high C? You can always get a 6-string and swap in a nut for F#-B-E-A-D-G tuning.

 

[MotorCityMinion]

I'm hoping to go down around 180-200 range for lower tunings like drop E being lowest.

Drop E? DrOp E? drOP e? What frequency would that be? Can an speaker reproduce it? Help me out here. Am I missing something?

 

[BarfanyShart]

Like I stated above I was going to send all my lows to a 2x15 && a all the rest through a 4x12. Maybe though since I'm going as low as E0 I may go w/ an 18 or two instead of the 15s? What do you think?



You know what? This is really good advice that I overlooked; I was so focused on moving the top string, that I didn't think to move the other four strings to compensate! Not a bad idea.



Ah so if you didn't also slant the nut the the fan would just be a progressive slant and the middle wouldn't even be straight! I get it; so what about how Ibanez uses mono rail saddles slanted at the bridge w no slanted nut?

I don't know the ibanez bass you are talking about, but I am not aware of a multiscale instrument that doesn't have a slanted nut. One of the Ibanez basses I saw does look like a straight nut, but then it has a slanted zero fret - that's kind of a simplified construction technique, and i could see doing that if you were building your own custom multiscale fretless.

 

[NeonVomit]

Although, what's your purpose for this whole rig anyway? Your info says you're touring. Are you playing backyard shows at friends houses, and little dive bars with no house support? Because when you're on stage, your rig is just for looks. Your signal goes to house, and they mix you in through the PA (loudspeakers and subs). Or, is it all for your rehearsal spot? Or what?

Agree up to a point. In smaller venues, having a good amp onstage is vital for me - that's what allows you and the audience to really feel the bass instead of whatever just comes out of the PA. Larger venues with a good PA it doesn't really matter, you can run DI and nobody will notice, but for smaller venues with a not so hot PA, a good cab for my head is a godsend.

 

[ardgedee]

You can use FretFind2D to experiment with string scales and see what's possible.
This is (roughly) what a Dingwall 5-string looks like (I probably don't have the widths correct).

If you put a nut for a multiscale on a non-multiscale neck, either there will be airspace between the nut and the fingerboard under the lower strings in order to make them longer than 34", or the nut will overlap the fingerboard and the higher strings will be less than 34". If you put a bridge for a multiscale on a non-multiscale bass, you will have similar problems of either the low strings being too long or the upper strings being too short. Either scenario sets the perpendicular point at the nut or the bridge, which is not particularly ergonomic; most multiscales have the perpendicular point between the 7 and 12 fret. Click the links for illustrations.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Drop E? DrOp E? drOP e? What frequency would that be? Can an speaker reproduce it? Help me out here. Am I missing something?

Its just a flubby clack. The human ear can't even hear it even if a speaker could reproduce it.

 

[johnson79]

But they do use a slanted nut. Some builders run the fingerboard out on the treble side, but the nut is slanted.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I don't know the ibanez bass you are talking about, but I am not aware of a multiscale instrument that doesn't have a slanted nut. One of the Ibanez basses I saw does look like a straight nut, but then it has a slanted zero fret - that's kind of a simplified construction technique, and i could see doing that if you were building your own custom multiscale fretless.

Nah, the bass he's talking about is standard scale. OP thinks that because his bridge looks like this, that the unlined fretless is "multiscale/fanned" he was wondering if he should slant the nut to match the bridge. He doesn't understand that that's just how the bridge is set on this standard fretless bass. But, he wants to put a 200mm (?) B string on his bass so he can produce in audiable frequencies all the way to the nut.

Metal

 

[BurningSkies]

I've been playing a multi-scale 5-string for 7 years and Fretless Bass for ~30 years. I would never attempt a multi-scale fretless, too much of a moving target for intonation. But, do what you will.
You are stuck with a "built" multi-scale, trying to retro-fit results in replacing the neck and bridge with very expensive and (in the case of the neck) rare/unobtainable products.

If you want to go all of the way down to G#, you'll want something with as long of a scale as you can find. In this case, you're looking at a Dingwall as I don't know of anyone else that uses a full 37" scale on the B-string. I've never seen a fretless Combustion or NG-series, so you're either defretting one of those, or buying one of his Canadian built basses ($3K+ new).
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're in a bit of a corner here

You rang?!? There is no stock option for fretless for the Combustions. I did take one and have it professionally reworked as fretless, and feedback from Sheldon and the shop was that it was the first (and to date at that time) only fretless combustion There are plenty of Dingwall fretless basses out there though...but they're all Canadian built customs. With the cost of a new Combustion + the cost of a professional grade defret, neck finish and setup, it might be best to look at entry level customs.

I think if someone wanted to devote the time to getting good at playing a fretless multiscale they could, just like people get good with "normal" fretless basses.

ESP definitely does. There might be others. There's also a Quake bass that has 40-37" multiscale.

You are correct, sir. I'd generally not suggest it to anyone who isn't already used to fanned frets, the learning curve of moving from any fretted to fretless takes a bunch of time and effort to overcome, so adding in that it would be a different scale length from the bass you're used to plus the fanning would probably be a bit demoralizing for many.

Every multiscale instrument will have a "center" where the "fret" will be straight and the scale will fan out from that point. If you kept a straight nut then the nut would be that "center" - which means your instrument wouldn't really have a center. I dont know that doing this would make the instrument unplayable, but no other multiscale instruments are designed like this, so i assume it would not be any multiscale players' preference.

This is an interesting part of the discussion in relation to fanning. Ralph Novax either does or did sell Fender style replacement necks for non-fanned instruments. You end up with the most extreme part of the fan being at the nut obviously, and then the 'parallel' point on the string length becomes where the bridge is. That's a bit rough. You could do the same in reverse, where the nut is straight and the bridge is the 'most fanned' part of the neck, but it might be a bear depending on the body size/setup to fit those fanned bridge pieces correctly.

One of the most important design questions on a multiscale is picking the 'parallel' fret...that's the hinge point and the place where it fans out in either direction from there. The way that most builders do this is by picking what they think the most highly trafficked part of the neck will be in terms of playing. The fan gets more extreme the farther from the hinge fret. On Dingwalls that's the 7th fret, meaning that the fan is less extreme in that region (and most players live in that 3rd - to- 12th fret zone pretty consistently)

The other issue for the OP is that he's looking for the length to have more string tension to go low. If you're converting a traditional 34" or 35" bass in this way, you're really not getting the benefit of much extra length. You'll run out of body to attach your lowest bridge pieces before you'll get any real serious net benefit. Remember, if you're doing this to a 34" bass and you want a 3" fan and it's all at the bridge, you're looking at having the bridge pieces arrayed at least a few inches back from your 'highest' string if not more. Not many bodies give you this room.

 

[mongo2]

When I played fretless I used a single scale bass and kept the saddles all the same distance from the nut just like on my upright and intonated by ear.

My Warmoth fretless...

 

[getBAK]

ESP definitely does. There might be others. There's also a Quake bass that has 40-37" multiscale.

Never heard of Quake before... ya learn something new every day.

@Lenny JG You might want to take a look at Payson's website. He's an (maybe the only) aftermarket Multiscale expert.
Payson offers .170 Strings specifically to do what you are looking for. There are also good single saddle bridges and a guy who knows exactly what you need to do. Payson Fanned Bass Strings

I'll note, at E0, you are at the outer limits of what humans can actually hear in the fundamental (20.6 hz). Most of what people are going to be able to decern are actually overtones.
You are beyond what the best conventional bass cabinets can support for a fundamental and are going to need a dedicated subwoofer/crossover in conjunction with a conventional cab for this to work well.