Fanned or Unfanned Fretless?

[BarfanyShart]

I'm just gonna throw this out there, since we are talking fringe bass playing anyway: but I always thought a 3/4 scale EUB would be the thing for a fretless sub-contra bass build. They got a 40 inch scale, DB tuners can accommodate any thickness of string, piezo pickups are full range response, the nut, tailpiece and bridge are easy to file as necessary. Playing a 40+ inch upright is going to be more ergonomic than playing a 37 inch BG for most people.

 

[Lenny JG]

That's what I'm saying. Bass speakers aren't subwoofers. The max frequency they can produce is about 40hz for low tuned ported cabs. At like a 10db roll off. Your 412 will actually handle more than your 215, better. There's more speaker surface. With your set up right now, it would probably sound a lot better just running it all 2ohms without a crossover. You need a subwoofer to really gain anything. Not a bass cab.

Although, what's your purpose for this whole rig anyway? Your info says you're touring. Are you playing backyard shows at friends houses, and little dive bars with no house support? Because when you're on stage, your rig is just for looks. Your signal goes to house, and they mix you in through the PA (loudspeakers and subs). Or, is it all for your rehearsal spot? Or what?

You really just need a little wedge monitor in front of you, or ear buds. The audience can't hear your rig anyway. I've always just tried to get where I could hear the snare, and thats been good enough to go. House turns you down so far, you can never hear yourself without in ears.

Okay, back to topic. Hahahaha. Yeah, like I said before though...you'd most likely benefit from a 35" scale bass. If you want it fretless, just go with a standard scale. The bridge being staggered, like on a monorail bridge, is for intonation. It has nothing to do with scale length. You still set it up, and play it the same. But, for an un lined fretless, you set your intonation by ear and memory. If your intonation is off, its because your finger's in the wrong spot. Ever so slightly. Alright?

Yes 2 15" subwoofers. My bass already comes out of our monitoring/p.a. Systems 18" subwoofer, I just want more. I use an svt4pro and dark glass electronics through an x32 all driven to front of house. I don't play house shows, Ive played some pretty big shows w bands such as killswitch engage and upon a burning body etc. and we tour decent sized venues. I attached a photo containing half of our rack in it, the photo doesn't have our p.a. Or subwoofer pictured.
We use all in ears, and control our own sound with a sound guy who overrides house sound if need be. I've played with bands playing lower than what I intend with worse gear. You don't need an 18" subwoofer to do what Im doing, but it helps. especially for what I'm doing. Guess I'm buying 2 18s next month. Lol thanks anyway man.

Again my intonation is great. My top string not so much. Which might be a problem when all my strings are fat as shag on an E0 six string.
As someone stated above though I can compensate by moving the intonation on the other strings to line up w my top string instead of vice versa which may have been the best advice so far.

How important to you is the high C? You can always get a 6-string and swap in a nut for F#-B-E-A-D-G tuning.

Correct.

View attachment 3994872 View attachment 3994873 View attachment 3994874 View attachment 3994876

Nah, the bass he's talking about is standard scale. OP thinks that because his bridge looks like this, that the unlined fretless is "multiscale/fanned" he was wondering if he should slant the nut to match the bridge. He doesn't understand that that's just how the bridge is set on this standard fretless bass. But, he wants to put a 200mm (?) B string on his bass so he can produce in audiable frequencies all the way to the nut.

Metal

No I'm asking if I pull them back further if it does that, which someone gave me information how it doesn't work that way, so I never thought anything, just asked a question. My bridge doesn't look like that, idk where you got that from man.

If a computer can do sub bass, so can I.

You rang?!? There is no stock option for fretless for the Combustions. I did take one and have it professionally reworked as fretless, and feedback from Sheldon and the shop was that it was the first (and to date at that time) only fretless combustion There are plenty of Dingwall fretless basses out there though...but they're all Canadian built customs. With the cost of a new Combustion + the cost of a professional grade defret, neck finish and setup, it might be best to look at entry level customs.

View attachment 3994894



You are correct, sir. I'd generally not suggest it to anyone who isn't already used to fanned frets, the learning curve of moving from any fretted to fretless takes a bunch of time and effort to overcome, so adding in that it would be a different scale length from the bass you're used to plus the fanning would probably be a bit demoralizing for many.



This is an interesting part of the discussion in relation to fanning. Ralph Novax either does or did sell Fender style replacement necks for non-fanned instruments. You end up with the most extreme part of the fan being at the nut obviously, and then the 'parallel' point on the string length becomes where the bridge is. That's a bit rough. You could do the same in reverse, where the nut is straight and the bridge is the 'most fanned' part of the neck, but it might be a bear depending on the body size/setup to fit those fanned bridge pieces correctly.

One of the most important design questions on a multiscale is picking the 'parallel' fret...that's the hinge point and the place where it fans out in either direction from there. The way that most builders do this is by picking what they think the most highly trafficked part of the neck will be in terms of playing. The fan gets more extreme the farther from the hinge fret. On Dingwalls that's the 7th fret, meaning that the fan is less extreme in that region (and most players live in that 3rd - to- 12th fret zone pretty consistently)

The other issue for the OP is that he's looking for the length to have more string tension to go low. If you're converting a traditional 34" or 35" bass in this way, you're really not getting the benefit of much extra length. You'll run out of body to attach your lowest bridge pieces before you'll get any real serious net benefit. Remember, if you're doing this to a 34" bass and you want a 3" fan and it's all at the bridge, you're looking at having the bridge pieces arrayed at least a few inches back from your 'highest' string if not more. Not many bodies give you this room.

Thank you for this great reply!

Never heard of Quake before... ya learn something new every day.

@Lenny JG You might want to take a look at Payson's website. He's an (maybe the only) aftermarket Multiscale expert.
Payson offers .170 Strings specifically to do what you are looking for. There are also good single saddle bridges and a guy who knows exactly what you need to do. Payson Fanned Bass Strings

I'll note, at E0, you are at the outer limits of what humans can actually hear in the fundamental (20.6 hz). Most of what people are going to be able to decern are actually overtones.
You are beyond what the best conventional bass cabinets can support for a fundamental and are going to need a dedicated subwoofer/crossover in conjunction with a conventional cab for this to work well.

Thank you for the recommendations! Imo with the right gear it sounds great. If a computer can do sub bass, so can I.

 

[Lenny JG]

I'm just gonna throw this out there, since we are talking fringe bass playing anyway: but I always thought a 3/4 scale EUB would be the thing for a fretless sub-contra bass build. They got a 40 inch scale, DB tuners can accommodate any thickness of string, piezo pickups are full range response, the nut, tailpiece and bridge are easy to file as necessary. Playing a 40+ inch upright is going to be more ergonomic than playing a 37 inch BG for most people.

Stay tuned, I have one being made for such a thing so I can use a bow.

 

[TrevorG]

A fanned fretless bass. Because life isn't hard enough.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Stay tuned, I have one being made for such a thing so I can use a bow.

You may need a bow custom made for something like that, too. Something a bit shorter, wider, and heavier than a standard bass bow. You should post that on the DB side when you get it, the guys over there will get a kick out of it if you get it sounding musical.

 

[Lenny JG]

A fanned fretless bass. Because life isn't hard enough.

Apparently dingwall makes em unlined. Makes sense to me since I'm already reaching about. Lol

You may need a bow custom made for something like that, too. Something a bit shorter, wider, and heavier than a standard bass bow. You should post that on the DB side when you get it, the guys over there will get a kick out of it if you get it sounding musical.

True dat! Will do. Lol

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Yes 2 15" subwoofers. My bass already comes out of our monitoring/p.a. Systems 18" subwoofer, I just want more. I use an svt4pro and dark glass electronics through an x32 all driven to front of house. I don't play house shows, Ive played some pretty big shows w bands such as killswitch engage and upon a burning body etc. and we tour decent sized venues. I attached a photo containing half of our rack in it, the photo doesn't have our p.a. Or subwoofer pictured.
We use all in ears, and control our own sound with a sound guy who overrides house sound if need be. I've played with bands playing lower than what I intend with worse gear. You don't need an 18" subwoofer to do what Im doing, but it helps. especially for what I'm doing. Guess I'm buying 2 18s next month. Lol thanks anyway man.

Again my intonation is great. My top string not so much. Which might be a problem when all my strings are fat as shag on an E0 six string.
As someone stated above though I can compensate by moving the intonation on the other strings to line up w my top string instead of vice versa which may have been the best advice so far.



Correct.



No I'm asking if I pull them back further if it does that, which someone gave me information how it doesn't work that way, so I never thought anything, just asked a question. My bridge doesn't look like that, idk where you got that from man.

If a computer can do sub bass, so can I.



Thank you for this great reply!



Thank you for the recommendations! Imo with the right gear it sounds great. If a computer can do sub bass, so can I.

Okay, so you have 2 15" "subwoofers." That makes more sense. What does your bridge look like? You did say it was a monorail bridge, right?

 

[BarfanyShart]

You should reach out to Kalium to see if they will do a fretless of one of these:
[This invalid link has been removed]
My understanding is they are all semi-custom jobs anyway, so why not a fretless?

 

[singlemalt]

I forgot about Payson strings! Payson is a great source for multi scale fanned fret wisdom. Strings and even bridges.

I’ve purchased quite a few string sets for my long scale Dingwalls from Payson. My favorites were the reduced core nickels, followed by the medium light nickels, and there are even a great set of flats. I don’t do stainless steel, but I’m sure the Payson stainless would be just as nice.

Solid, prompt service and shipping.

I’ve actually played a Quake bass at a gtg. Talk about long and low! Not fanned fret, but a special tool for the lowest of the low. Played nice, the scale length was around 40” if I recall correctly.

I’m not sure if you are looking to build or buy, but there are a number of fanned fret builds in the luthier section.

You might look for a used, early model Dingwall combustion. A great platform for modding. Every once in a while they would pop up for under or around $1k.

The import Dingwalls have excellent QC and pack all the superb Dingwall design into a more affordable bass. I am super impressed with my first import, a Dbird. It has the longscale, but not so many frets. And only in four strings. The five string versions are coming.

 

[Lenny JG]

You should reach out to Kalium to see if they will do a fretless of one of these:
[This invalid link has been removed]
My understanding is they are all semi-custom jobs anyway, so why not a fretless?

Kaliim is a great brand w/ bad service. I may just do that, but I've seen reviews that don't do the Kailum basses justice tbh.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Kaliim is a great brand w/ bad service. I may just do that, but I've seen reviews that don't do the Kailum basses justice tbh.

I've heard the same, but it is a plug-and-play option not to be overlooked.

 

[Lenny JG]

Agree up to a point. In smaller venues, having a good amp onstage is vital for me - that's what allows you and the audience to really feel the bass instead of whatever just comes out of the PA. Larger venues with a good PA it doesn't really matter, you can run DI and nobody will notice, but for smaller venues with a not so hot PA, a good cab for my head is a godsend.

I have an svt4pro running through our p.a. Including a sub, house p.a. And an Ampeg 8x10 but am getting more 15s and a 4x12 to replace the 8x10

 

[coy garcia]

Interesting thread. I play a 35" scale fretless with a Zero nut tuned standard. Although I think the fanned fret design is cool I never understood why. Strings get shorter as you move up the fretboard regaurdless. I would suggest you get something with a Zero fret so you can use fatter strings without changing the nut.

 

[logdrum]

No value n a fanned fretless. Get a Dingwal fretted and tell me if you can hit the string on the fret or fret edge in the lower positions. Do spider exercises and do cross string 3 string apart. Chances are you finger will be inside the fret box or you are hurting or you are micro shifting. Unless you have really long fingers. Now try that again on 14th fret and up. The Ibanez and Carvin fanned fretted are not true to the Novak fret ratios - Novak did not just arbitrary fan the fret. It you want a non floppy B string get a 36 scale. The purpose of the fan fret is that the player is not playing any different from the normal fret spacing and no micro sifting as you are expected to play inside the fretbox and not to the edge of the "frets", Fretless playing expects you to play on the edge of the "frets" and I can just see these fanned fretless as a recipe for hand injury or sloppy intonation

 

[Lenny JG]

Interesting thread. I play a 35" scale fretless with a Zero nut tuned standard. Although I think the fanned fret design is cool I never understood why. Strings get shorter as you move up the fretboard regaurdless. I would suggest you get something with a Zero fret so you can use fatter strings without changing the nut.

No value n a fanned fretless. Get a Dingwal fretted and tell me if you can hit the string on the fret or fret edge in the lower positions. Do spider exercises and do cross string 3 string apart. Chances are you finger will be inside the fret box or you are hurting or you are micro shifting. Unless you have really long fingers. Now try that again on 14th fret and up. The Ibanez and Carvin fanned fretted are not true to the Novak fret ratios - Novak did not just arbitrary fan the fret. It you want a non floppy B string get a 36 scale. The purpose of the fan fret is that the player is not playing any different from the normal fret spacing and no micro sifting as you are expected to play inside the fretbox and not to the edge of the "frets", Fretless playing expects you to play on the edge of the "frets" and I can just see these fanned fretless as a recipe for hand injury or sloppy intonation

It's strictly about intonation in a super low register and how the strings line up. Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[BurningSkies]

You should reach out to Kalium to see if they will do a fretless of one of these:
[This invalid link has been removed]
My understanding is they are all semi-custom jobs anyway, so why not a fretless?

Be very.careful.with.Kalium. I know a few people who have given money for builds and never seen a bass. I also know people who have ordered strings and had problems.

 

[BurningSkies]

Dingwall basses have 'banjo' aka thin and low fretwire. That requires you really play up on the fret with a certain level of precision and doesn't encorage you to play back off the fret. After playing a few across about 15 years I had my Combustion converted professionally by Mo (Mo's custom shop). Anyone who plays a Dingwall regularly should have no more additional problems than non-fanned bass players have, and in fact you may find it's an easier transition since the fretted basses make you play up on the frets.

As someone who's had a fanned fretless that's 34-37" scale length for a couple years now and as someone who's only played fretless for the past 6 months (between 3 and 8 hours a day every day) I can say that there's been no pain, no aching, no hurting or damage of any kind.

Again, if you're coming from a parallel fret bass, your best bet is a parallel fretless rather than fanned. Get the fretless that most closely matches your muscle memory and the involuntary 'training' you already have ingrained.

 

[Lenny JG]

Dingwall basses have 'banjo' aka thin and low fretwire. That requires you really play up on the fret with a certain level of precision and doesn't encorage you to play back off the fret. After playing a few across about 15 years I had my Combustion converted professionally by Mo (Mo's custom shop). Anyone who plays a Dingwall regularly should have no more additional problems than non-fanned bass players have, and in fact you may find it's an easier transition since the fretted basses make you play up on the frets.

As someone who's had a fanned fretless that's 34-37" scale length for a couple years now and as someone who's only played fretless for the past 6 months (between 3 and 8 hours a day every day) I can say that there's been no pain, no aching, no hurting or damage of any kind.

Again, if you're coming from a parallel fret bass, your best bet is a parallel fretless rather than fanned. Get the fretless that most closely matches your muscle memory and the involuntary 'training' you already have ingrained.

I've been playing fretless almost exclusively for years now so I'm just thinking for the low register it might be a good option to go w/ the fanned intonation. thanks for the great advice

 

[luciens]

On the FL, I assert that you can get used to anything, eventually, with enough practice and effort. But the consideration is always the ROI on learning to intonate on it, especially if it's unlined and the more exotic it is. Some players are good enough to switch between, for example, 34" and 35" scale unlined basses pretty automatically with a reasonable amount of effort. Others can play 6 string unlined well enough, even above the 12th "fret" that it's worth the investment in time and effort to learn that too (I wasn't one of them ).

My suggestion would be an unlined multiscale would be a pretty large investment in practice to get to where you can intonate it well enough to really feel free to do what you want on it, including gigging with it etc. So I'd recommend, if possible, try before buying, to get at least a broad picture of what you'd be up against. Either that, or just be prepared to woodshed for an extended period of time with it and maybe not be afraid to eventually admit defeat if you have to, and put it back on the stand or sell it, etc.

I've never really been charged up about multiscales even with frets, so for me a fretless one wouldn't make any sense at all. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't necessarily discourage someone else from doing it. I think there are players who already do, so, it's worth a shot.

The only other thing is intonating lower notes gets progressively harder as you go lower. A B string is about as low as most people can go and still intonate it as good or better than a fret can. So going lower than that, fretless starts to become impractical, plus or minus how good your hearing and sense of intonation is... So just something to keep in mind, just as a pure practical matter, if you plan to go lower than the low B....

L

 

[Lenny JG]

On the FL, I assert that you can get used to anything, eventually, with enough practice and effort. But the consideration is always the ROI on learning to intonate on it, especially if it's unlined and the more exotic it is. Some players are good enough to switch between, for example, 34" and 35" scale unlined basses pretty automatically with a reasonable amount of effort. Others can play 6 string unlined well enough, even above the 12th "fret" that it's worth the investment in time and effort to learn that too (I wasn't one of them ).

My suggestion would be an unlined multiscale would be a pretty large investment in practice to get to where you can intonate it well enough to really feel free to do what you want on it, including gigging with it etc. So I'd recommend, if possible, try before buying, to get at least a broad picture of what you'd be up against. Either that, or just be prepared to woodshed for an extended period of time with it and maybe not be afraid to eventually admit defeat if you have to, and put it back on the stand or sell it, etc.

I've never really been charged up about multiscales even with frets, so for me a fretless one wouldn't make any sense at all. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't necessarily discourage someone else from doing it. I think there are players who already do, so, it's worth a shot.

The only other thing is intonating lower notes gets progressively harder as you go lower. A B string is about as low as most people can go and still intonate it as good or better than a fret can. So going lower than that, fretless starts to become impractical, plus or minus how good your hearing and sense of intonation is... So just something to keep in mind, just as a pure practical matter, if you plan to go lower than the low B....

L

If it's a bass, I can play it; the point here is the intonation in a register lower than G# && if it makes more sense to fan it or leave it traditional. As someone posted above it might just make sense to do traditional && move the intonation across the higher strings to match the lower string. I feel like this might work, but it might still be more practical to fan when going so low.

I've been going lower && lower than B for 10years now, about 5 on fretless, && am looking forward to moving to E0 from my current low of G#!