Double Bass Fast Runs - Mendelssohn Hebrides

[CaseyVancouver]

I have an symphony concert end of November where we are playing the Mendelssohn Hebrides. Having trouble getting the speed up. We are at 120 bpm with the 16th notes, at ff.

I can handle 80 bpm accurately but things start to fall apart faster than that. The right hand is fine, my left hand seems to be the issue. I use German bow.

I have tried the usual tricks like playing it super slow first, memorizing the runs and getting slowly faster with the metronome. I’ve also tried playing some runs with four 16ths on only one note to get used to the speed while sailing through. Not really getting there.

Any suggestions?

 

[Tom Lane]

Can you play any comfortable, familiar, simple pattern, cleanly and clearly as 16th notes at 120 bpm? Something stone-cold simple such as A B C B on the G string. Or similarly, G A Bb A at the octave in TP? If so, the issue is familiarity with the music or possibly technique. If not, the issue is you won't be able play that fast without a lot of dedicated practice. A couple of things that can help IME, if you're close, is to use Rabbath pivots instead of shifting because it's much faster and easier on the left hand, IME, and try to move as little as possible along the strings but go across strings instead. I've been working on Cherokee and the bridge trips me up faster than 220 bpm but staying in one location and pivoting helps and I need to hear the path more clearly in my case. Unfortunately walking a bassline in one register all the time is kinda boring for a jazz tune but I'm trying to get the speed up first. Best of luck!

 

[CaseyVancouver]

Can you play any comfortable, familiar, simple pattern, cleanly and clearly as 16th notes at 120 bpm? Something stone-cold simple such as A B C B on the G string. Or similarly, G A Bb A at the octave in TP? If so, the issue is familiarity with the music or possibly technique. If not, the issue is you won't be able play that fast without a lot of dedicated practice. A couple of things that can help IME, if you're close, is to use Rabbath pivots instead of shifting because it's much faster and easier on the left hand, IME, and try to move as little as possible along the strings but go across strings instead. I've been working on Cherokee and the bridge trips me up faster than 220 bpm but staying in one location and pivoting helps and I need to hear the path more clearly in my case. Unfortunately walking a bassline in one register all the time is kinda boring for a jazz tune but I'm trying to get the speed up first. Best of luck!

I think I’m going to work on some of the trickier parts like bars 248/249 and build up to 120 bpm, then move on to others. I can play bits of it at 120 ok. I’m pretty sure I can get to 100 bpm for the whole piece in a week or so.

I should of mentioned I’ve been playing in 5ths tuning since the beginning of the year. The adjustment has been without issue, even though I played 4ths for almost 50 years. It did not even occur to me until this moment that maybe my subconscious wants me to play in 4ths during fast reading. (I’m not actually sure 5ths tuning has much to do with not getting to 120 bpm)

I’ll see if I can use pivots a bit more to avoid some shifting, thanks for the suggestion.

Looks like I’ll be dedicating practice time for fast playing. I like challenges

 

[LouisF]

Casey,
I hate to admit it - and I'll have to shoot anyone who repeats this - I made it through this last year playing every other note. NO ONE noticed (the younger guys in the section were too busy playing all the notes!)

 

[Carl Hillman]

View attachment 3554043 I have an symphony concert end of November where we are playing the Mendelssohn Hebrides. Having trouble getting the speed up. We are at 120 bpm with the 16th notes, at ff.

I can handle 80 bpm accurately but things start to fall apart faster than that. The right hand is fine, my left hand seems to be the issue. I use German bow.

I have tried the usual tricks like playing it super slow first, memorizing the runs and getting slowly faster with the metronome. I’ve also tried playing some runs with four 16ths on only one note to get used to the speed while sailing through. Not really getting there.

Any suggestions?

I just checked out a YouTube vid of the London Symphony playing it.

There's not a lot of shots of the bass section, but there is a quick one around measures 241 - 243. And, this may just be an illusion, but (even with it slowed down) it looks like a couple of the guys are just sliding their index fingers up the G string to play the ascending A#, B, C#, D 16th notes.

I'm probably just seeing things. Surely, players of that caliber wouldn't just gliss a fast run like that.

All I can say is, I'm glad I don't have to try to play it.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

I just checked out a YouTube vid of the London Symphony playing it.

There's not a lot of shots of the bass section, but there is a quick one around measures 241 - 243. And, this may just be an illusion, but (even with it slowed down) it looks like a couple of the guys are just sliding their index fingers up the G string to play the ascending A#, B, C#, D 16th notes.

I'm probably just seeing things. Surely, players of that caliber wouldn't just gliss a fast run like that.

All I can say is, I'm glad I don't have to try to play it.

I have watched that Hebrides video with the LSO a number of times. The principle bassist is Joel Quarrington, playing in 5ths. The whole piece is played beautifully. I just need to work on it!

 

[Carl Hillman]

Yes, upon thinking about it further, their technique is probably just so good...their left hands so fluid and their fingers so close to the string...that it only looks like a slide.

good luck, sir

 

[LouisF]

When I was a kid (55+ years ago) I was the co-principal bass of the Greater Boston Youth Symphony (my goal in life is to play as well at 75 as I did at 17!!)

Every year we would play a concert with the Boston Pops in Symphony Hall - half the orchestra with half the Pops on one weekend; half the orchestra with the other half.

That year we were doing the "1812" and Harry Ellis Dickson, the associate conductor of the Pops, chewed our bee-hinds out at rehearsal for not getting the chromatic runs in the overture. We had sectionals, worked our tails off and went into Symphony Hall filled with dread.

I sat next to Georges Molyeurx (sp?), who was brought from Paris by Koussevitsky himself to be principal bass of the BSO.

When I pulled up next to Molyeurx he said nothing, but tapped the front and sides of my Juzek bass to see if it - and I - were worthy. He grunted his approval and we were off.

When it came to the chromatic run passages I was beavering away as practiced, when Molyeaurx WHACKED me on the arm with his bow (probably a $25K Fetique etc). I turned and he just shook his head and ran his index finger down the string.

I shrugged and did likewise. The maestro smiled and the cannons blasted away.
Louis

 

[David Potts]

Casey, I'm afraid I don't have much to offer here. It is a work that has left 50-year-old scars that still bother me when I see it scheduled. I have an advantage in using all four fingers and strings tuned in 4ths and it still worries me. I would agree with Tom's approach above. Warm up on simple patterns that can be played with separate and slurred bows to ensure clean articulation between hands as speed is increased, avoiding the feeling that speed is a barrier. I try to find a physical balance between my hands by experimenting with bow lengths.

I will shortly PM you with some more information that I must find in my past conversations.

Cheers, DP

 

[Neil Pye]

Find a speed at which you can play everything cleanly. Practice at that speed. Vary the rhythms - dotted etc. Keep practicing at the speed you can play it. Don't ever practice a passage wrong! If you practice at the slow speed all the time, you will find (I hope, because I did! Played this last year... really hard) that the speed will be there when you need it.

 

[Carl Hillman]

...he just shook his head and ran his index finger down the string.

Surely, players of that caliber wouldn't just gliss a fast run like that.

Supposition confirmed! Thank you, Sir.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

Yes, upon thinking about it further, their technique is probably just so good...their left hands so fluid and their fingers so close to the string...that it only looks like a slide.

good luck, sir

Bars 241, 242 is a passage I actually can play at 120 bpm.

I memorized it a few weeks back and as I play that passage my fingers do not leave the string, giving an impression of glissando. I press on each note but the fingers stay on the string. At this speed to lift a finger for each note seems kinda impossible. Watching my hand as I play I can see how it looks like a glissando, but it actually is not.

Good observation on your part Carl, thanks!
Joel is the bassist just out of sight on the right.

 

[Phil Rowan]

@CaseyVancouver Have you tried doubling or triplet-izing each note? The effect here is to practice the bow stroke at or around your goal tempo (or build up to it) while slowing down the left hand so that you can simultaneously work on fingerings, shifts, etc.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

I’ve cracked the code to playing Hebrides (page 5) at 120 bpm! Yippee!

The earlier parts, while fast, are not the obstacle page 5 can be.
Your solutions may be very different than mine of course. Thank you for your suggestions.

This is what worked:
- play 1” from the bridge, keeping good posture (I stand). This 1” from the bridge seems to relax the right hand with minimal movement. The left hand has to be up to speed for fast shifts, but you are freed from trying to get a deep bass sound.
- score says ff but if played at p it is loud enough. Playing lightly at the bridge is loud, and the bow flows better at p during 120bpm. The sound is not deep and punchy, I left that for the half tones and whole tones in other parts of the piece.
- isolate tricky parts first.
- warm up on 120bpm 16ths playing simple notes.
- fast should look easy. Relax and play/feel/look relaxed.
- memorize the tough passages.
- use a metronome a lot, with volume high

What did not work:
- trying to count out loud at 120 bpm while playing. Now I have a feel for the pulse of the count.
- trying to get ff and a deep punchy sound. It just would not happen at 120. At 100 perhaps.
- Using my lightest bow. I have 5 bows to choose from. The lightest at first seemed the best choice. Once I moved to playing at the bridge my best quality bow did the job.
- drastic fingering changes to avoid shifts. What’s natural is what goes fast.

I have played this piece since the beginning of August when the conductor invited me to play with the symphony, and sent me the music. The caveat was if I could not handle the parts I am not ready for the orchestra.

I keep track of my bowing practice time. Since August I have 113 hours in, with something like 40 hours on Hebrides alone, trying to get page 5, and fast bowing, up to speed. Parts of page 5 I can now do the 16ths faster than 120, and have gotten through the whole page at 130. Our part on page 5 is in unison with the other strings. Violins are used to these kind of parts so I will lock in with them.

I’m now looking at the Hebrides page 5 as a reasonable audition excerpt.

 

[LouisF]

Bravo!

What orchestra?

 

[Tom Lane]

I’ve cracked the code to playing Hebrides (page 5) at 120 bpm! Yippee!

The earlier parts, while fast, are not the obstacle page 5 can be.
Your solutions may be very different than mine of course. Thank you for your suggestions.

This is what worked:
- play 1” from the bridge, keeping good posture (I stand). This 1” from the bridge seems to relax the right hand with minimal movement. The left hand has to be up to speed for fast shifts, but you are freed from trying to get a deep bass sound.
- score says ff but if played at p it is loud enough. Playing lightly at the bridge is loud, and the bow flows better at p during 120bpm. The sound is not deep and punchy, I left that for the half tones and whole tones in other parts of the piece.
- isolate tricky parts first.
- warm up on 120bpm 16ths playing simple notes.
- fast should look easy. Relax and play/feel/look relaxed.
- memorize the tough passages.
- use a metronome a lot, with volume high

What did not work:
- trying to count out loud at 120 bpm while playing. Now I have a feel for the pulse of the count.
- trying to get ff and a deep punchy sound. It just would not happen at 120. At 100 perhaps.
- Using my lightest bow. I have 5 bows to choose from. The lightest at first seemed the best choice. Once I moved to playing at the bridge my best quality bow did the job.
- drastic fingering changes to avoid shifts. What’s natural is what goes fast.

I have played this piece since the beginning of August when the conductor invited me to play with the symphony, and sent me the music. The caveat was if I could not handle the parts I am not ready for the orchestra.

I keep track of my bowing practice time. Since August I have 113 hours in, with something like 40 hours on Hebrides alone, trying to get page 5, and fast bowing, up to speed. Parts of page 5 I can now do the 16ths faster than 120, and have gotten through the whole page at 130. Our part on page 5 is in unison with the other strings. Violins are used to these kind of parts so I will lock in with them.

I’m now looking at the Hebrides page 5 as a reasonable audition excerpt.

Thanks for posting the follow-up @CaseyVancouver . I expect your experience will benefit those that follow and we should all want to help those that follow.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

Bravo!

What orchestra?

Fraser Valley Symphony.
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I also play in the North Shore Chamber Orchestra. Having tons of fun with it all!

 

[David Potts]

Looking at the forthcoming FVS program that accompanies Hebrides please do not forget the difficult fast string crossings in Troyte, one of the Enigma variations.

Often said to myself and my students - the brain doesn't accept new patterns of use quickly. With this variation start bowing very slowly and deliberately, with a strong sense of direction in the strokes. Down bow should feel like DOWN bow and up bow feel like UP bow. Stay close to the balance point of the stick and rest on the strings. Gradually notch up the speed, waiting at each new level until the brain says "I got it". Use the strings as a fulcrum to lever the bow across quickly and ensure that each stroke produces a clean note by adjusting the lengths. For timing and coordination be aware of starting each note with the hair stationary and bent around the string so that the fastest string crossings become almost crushed with constant arm weight. And don't think of speed as some sort of brick wall to crash through. I'd rather think of it as a free-spinning bicycle front wheel that just moves faster with little extra physical effort - just less time and bow length spent on each note.

 

[LouisF]

To go along with David's comment about the brain - last week's issue of the New Yorker had an essay on AI and predictive writing:
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The relevant passage was in the parts of the brain used by professional v. amateur writers. It tends to reinforce Casey VC's experience and David's insight:

Lotze (the researcher) designed a small desk where the study’s subjects could write by hand while he scanned their brains.

The subjects were given a few sentences from a short story to copy verbatim, in order to establish a baseline, and were then told to “brainstorm” for sixty seconds and then to continue writing “creatively” for two more minutes. Lotze noted that, during the brainstorming part of the test, magnetic imaging showed that the sensorimotor and visual areas were activated; once creative writing started, these areas were joined by the bilateral dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, the left inferior frontal gyrus, the left thalamus, and the inferior temporal gyrus. In short, writing seems to be a whole-brain activity—a brainstorm indeed.

Lotze also compared brain scans of amateur writers with those of people who pursue writing as a career.

He found that professional writers relied on a region of the brain that did not light up as much in the scanner when amateurs wrote—the left caudate nucleus, a tadpole-shaped structure (cauda means “tail” in Latin) in the midbrain that is associated with expertise in musicians and professional athletes. In amateur writers, neurons fired in the lateral occipital areas, which are associated with visual processing. Writing well, one could conclude, is, like playing the piano or dribbling a basketball, mostly a matter of doing it. Practice is the only path to mastery.

 

[Neil Pye]

Looking at the forthcoming FVS program that accompanies Hebrides please do not forget the difficult fast string crossings in Troyte, one of the Enigma variations.

Often said to myself and my students - the brain doesn't accept new patterns of use quickly. With this variation start bowing very slowly and deliberately, with a strong sense of direction in the strokes. Down bow should feel like DOWN bow and up bow feel like UP bow. Stay close to the balance point of the stick and rest on the strings. Gradually notch up the speed, waiting at each new level until the brain says "I got it". Use the strings as a fulcrum to lever the bow across quickly and ensure that each stroke produces a clean note by adjusting the lengths. For timing and coordination be aware of starting each note with the hair stationary and bent around the string so that the fastest string crossings become almost crushed with constant arm weight. And don't think of speed as some sort of brick wall to crash through. I'd rather think of it as a free-spinning bicycle front wheel that just moves faster with little extra physical effort - just less time and bow length spent on each note.

All of this. In my opinion Troyte (and a few other bits of Enigma) is more difficult to execute well than anything in "The Hebrides". Really is a question of cleaning up your technique and paring down the motions involved so that there's as little muscle action as possible