fEARful 12/6 - Ceramic instead of Neodymium?

[3506string]

I paid $179 a piece for my two 3012lf's. A quick price check shows they are running around $220-250 for a good price. An extra 40-70 bucks doesn't seem like a big deal especially if you are only buying one.

 

[BurningSkies]

I paid $179 a piece for my two 3012lf's. A quick price check shows they are running around $220-250 for a good price. An extra 40-70 bucks doesn't seem like a big deal especially if you are only buying one.

Especially since in my estimation they're twice the speaker of any of the ceramics.

 

[1n3]

Especially since in my estimation they're twice the speaker of any of the ceramics.

Almost literally, in the case of the aforementioned Delta 12LF. Vd is 243cc, vs 496cc for the 3012LF. Since you can get the Delta for less than half the price of the 3012LF, there's a value argument for the Delta, but not a strong one, IMO.

 

[seamonkey]

I paid $179 a piece for my two 3012lf's. A quick price check shows they are running around $220-250 for a good price. An extra 40-70 bucks doesn't seem like a big deal especially if you are only buying one.

That is such an incredible bargain.
We will not see these prices again. These are quality progressive designs. I hope they don't disappear.

 

[Never_grew_up]

I paid $179 a piece for my two 3012lf's. A quick price check shows they are running around $220-250 for a good price. An extra 40-70 bucks doesn't seem like a big deal especially if you are only buying one.

Having a major component jump up almost a 1/3 in price could be the difference in being able to afford it or not.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

To follow up on Vintage-Blue's question...is there no way for Eminence to produce a ceramic 3012/3015 HO/LF?

With ceramic magnets, it is probably more practical to increase cone area instead of excursion because there would be less weight and cost increase. The approximate 3012LF equivalent may be a ceramic 15, and the approximate 3015LF equivalent may be a ceramic 18.

 

[alexclaber]

Unsurprisingly I'm on the hunt for a ceramic driver that can match or better this performance, as we use the 3012LF in our Big Series cabs - quite a challenge! On the plus side at least we can get drivers built to our specs, as long as it's possible to meet those specs (i.e. not the normal ones you read!)

 

[okcrum]

Bill,

Could you elaborate on what "flux density" is, and how the smaller size is an advantage in this situation?

To follow up on Vintage-Blue's question...is there no way for Eminence to produce a ceramic 3012/3015 HO/LF?

Flux density indicates the amount of concentration of the magnetic field through an imaginary "window" in space. Neo magnets of the same strength as ceramic/alnico are smaller, so the concentration of magnetic field, or flux density, is higher.

The issue with neodymium is the classic single supplier risk problem, applied on a national scale. If that single supplier cuts you off, you're SOL.

 

[Korladis]

So from my understanding, if I've read things right, which I probably haven't, there's no ceramic magnet equivalent because to get similar capabilities to the 3012LF and 3015LF, a ceramic magnet would have to be enormous to the point of being ridiculous?

 

[will33]

It's not just the amount of magnetic "force" but the ability to have it concentrated in a small space around the voice coil in the gap. A neo can do that because it's very strong and very small. You could make a big ceramic that's as strong as a neo but it wouldn't be concentrated in a small space. That's the real advantage of a neo, it just happens to be lighter.

 

[R Baer]

I paid $179 a piece for my two 3012lf's. A quick price check shows they are running around $220-250 for a good price. An extra 40-70 bucks doesn't seem like a big deal especially if you are only buying one.

The real issue isn't today's price, it's longer term availability. The supply outlook is so bad that our supplier won't even guarantee that any new neo orders placed, will actually be delivered and they are recommending that us manufacturers look into other alternatives (ie. ceramic). My guess is that the Kappalites may soon be a thing of the past, regardless of price.

 

[5StringPocket]

Anyone considered the BEYMA 12MW/ND? It's still neo and the long term supply may be uncertain as well but the short term outlook might be better. This is the only one I've seen that really peaked my interest for a 3012LF substitute.
Beyma Neodymium Speakers - Beyma 12MW/Nd speaker - Beyma 12MW/Nd 700 watt 12" woofer for all bass applications. Beyma 12MW/Nd neodymium speaker and other Beyma neodymium lightweight speakers here.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Anyone considered the BEYMA 12MW/ND?

It's not the equal of the 3012LF.

My guess is that the Kappalites may soon be a thing of the past, regardless of price.

The neo shortage is a short term issue. Speakers use only a very small portion of neo magnet production. The primary industries that use it will make sure that supplies from other sources become available ASAP. Unlike oil N.America has no shortage of neo ore.

 

[will33]

Then why allow a foreign monopoly to continue this long, it ain't like those in the raw material industry didn't know what was going on and couldn't see this coming.

BTW, we don't have any shortage of oil here either, they just won't tap it until they run the price up where they want it.....kinda like neo.

 

[fdeck]

Dang, I might have to consider hoarding. The only risk is that Eminence will come out with an even better speaker.

I wish they made a neo BP102.

 

[will33]

Now that would be nice. There was a 3010LF in the works. I'm no industry insider but I would guess they shelved the project due to "recent world events"

 

[R Baer]

It's not the equal of the 3012LF.
The neo shortage is a short term issue. Speakers use only a very small portion of neo magnet production. The primary industries that use it will make sure that supplies from other sources become available ASAP. Unlike oil N.America has no shortage of neo ore.

I agree that the neo issue may be only a temporary roadblock, but the immediate future of the neo drivers is in the crapper. I can see them going through a period of not being available, until the situation rights itself.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Then why allow a foreign monopoly to continue this long, it ain't like those in the raw material industry didn't know what was going on and couldn't see this coming.

We freely gave them the monopoly because it was cheaper to import neo than to mine it ourselves. It was a short sighted decision that's now biting us on the ass.

BTW, we don't have any shortage of oil here either, they just won't tap it until they run the price up where they want it.....kinda like neo.

That notion is sourced from conspiracy theorists, not geologists. It's as credible as the '100 MPG carburetor'.

 

[BurningSkies]

That notion is sourced from conspiracy theorists, not geologists. It's as credible as the '100 MPG carburetor'.

I agree. We HAVE a mining operation for rare earths in the US. Its just been off line because of the current economics involved. Now that the pricing of neodymium has become more favorable for the supplier, there's near-term plans to go back online with US production. The reality is that the price of ore was artificially depressed by Chinese government to create this situation down the road.

 

[will33]

Short sighted to say the least. The oil thing I'm not so sure. We got oil in the Dakotas, the Rockies, Alaska, off shore. Extracting it at a reasonable cost may be an issue but I'm not so sure just having it is.

But for now I'll do more reading rather than ranting.