Fender factory setups - why so high?

[shewhorn]

Funny.. I am sure we have probably crossed paths. I was working at wurli's on comm ave in 90-91... And used to be at daddy's on mass ave quite a bit..

I'm guessing you knew Rick Maison then?

I remember the Skootch era too...

That rings a huge bell and I can't place it now. It's driving me nuts.

And what separates and makes a store successful is used gear. Daddy's really moved away from that and crashed. You can not shop against a used piece, you either like it negotiate a bit and buy it or it. You can't generally ask somebody to match an Internet price.

Very true. I've often wondered if it would be feasible from a business standpoint to have a store that specializes in primarily used gear?

Cheers, Joe

 

[Brad Johnson]

Very true. I've often wondered if it would be feasible from a business standpoint to have a store that specializes in primarily used gear?

Cheers, Joe

Depending on how you do it, absolutely.


Atomic Music in Beltsville, MD. Been around for maybe twenty years now and still going strong... but they don't follow the typical music store model on several counts. They have an aggressive buyback policy, typically allow more than other stores for used items in trades or buys, allow musicians to hang, etc.

Very loyal customer base.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Maybe it's time for me to start moonlighting as a set-up artist.

Give it a shot. See what they're willing to pay per piece. My money's on "not much".

 

[Kevindm215]

In my area it always seemed (to me) that Musicman suffered the most from this issue. They never seem to be setup well.

I got a StingRay in 2006 from a store, they had to order it in, but when i first played it i loved it, it was set up really well, I've since adjusted it more to my taste but cant complain about how the action was when i got it. But just this week i was in my local music store and they have a few SR's in stock, tried them all and i must say they were horribly set up. bad set ups in shops could def affect sales. I think the shops should keep a closer eye on the instruments especially if there laying in the store for a year, set up each one so its at least playable!

 

[Psycho]

Well, all this talk about doing your own setups got me to finally do my first ever today.

Also, I think it's safe to say while many would be happy with buying an already set up instrument, isn't it safe to assume a number of people wouldn't like the lower action, or play aggressively, find the bass clanky or noisy or what have you and not buy it based on that??? Just playing Devil's advocate here.

 

[electracoyote]

Well, all this talk about doing your own setups got me to finally do my first ever today.

Also, I think it's safe to say while many would be happy with buying an already set up instrument, isn't it safe to assume a number of people wouldn't like the lower action, or play aggressively, find the bass clanky or noisy or what have you and not buy it based on that??? Just playing Devil's advocate here.

+1, you nailed both points.

I just bought a new-in-the-box 2011 Fender MIM Jazz Standard. As usual, the set up was wack. As I've done dozens of times before with new basses, I did the following:

• Loosened all strings, tightened all screws and nuts on entire bass. Several were loose.
  
• Loosened neck bolts and re-set neck in pocket so strings align centered on fretboard.
  
• Removed and set relief (truss rod)
  
• Deepened shallow nut slots
  
• Set bridge for low action and intonation
  
• Set pickup height after experimenting with sweet spots

The entire process takes me about an hour, and I have a clue what I'm doing. (BTW, it's an amazingly good playing and sounding bass now.)

Two things to think about:

1. Could a tech, or someone in the factory, have possibly dialed in this bass to my high standard and playing preference the way I did? Or could they realistically only come so close?

2. How many man hours and at what cost would be involved to set up every bass produced, only to come "close" to the "average player" preference?

 

[mp40smg]

+1, you nailed both points.

I just bought a new-in-the-box 2011 Fender MIM Jazz Standard. As usual, the set up was wack. As I've done dozens of times before with new basses, I did the following:

• Loosened all strings, tightened all screws and nuts on entire bass. Several were loose.
  
• Loosened neck bolts and re-set neck in pocket so strings align centered on fretboard.
  
• Removed and set relief
  
• Deepened shallow nut slots
  
• Set bridge for low action and intonation
  
• Set pickup height after experimenting with sweet spots

The entire process takes me about an hour, and I have a clue what I'm doing. (BTW, it's an amazingly good playing and sounding bass now.)

Two things to think about:

1. Could a tech, or someone in the factory, have possibly dialed in this bass to my high standard and playing preference the way I did? Or could they realistically only come so close?

2. How many man hours and at what cost would be involved to set up every bass produced, only to come "close" to the "average player" preference?

Ime there tend to be a lot more "aggressive" players than light players. The harder they play, the higher the action needed to not buzz.

Also a lot of upright players seem to prefer high actions too.

I think aggressive players tend to me more the norm

 

[electracoyote]

Ime there tend to be a lot more "aggressive" players than light players. The harder they play, the higher the action needed to not buzz.

Also a lot of upright players seem to prefer high actions too.

I think aggressive players tend to me more the norm

That's a very good point, which could explain why, in their attempt to "aim at the middle," assemblers and music stores are more inclined to leave instruments with only what I would call partial set ups.

 

[mp40smg]

I'm guessing you knew Rick Maison then?



That rings a huge bell and I can't place it now. It's driving me nuts.



Very true. I've often wondered if it would be feasible from a business standpoint to have a store that specializes in primarily used gear?

Cheers, Joe

Rick was a tall guy, dark hair, worked in keyboards?

I was in guitars and basses.. I never really ventured over to that dark world of techno and fm synthesis..

 

[shewhorn]

Rick was a tall guy, dark hair, worked in keyboards?

I was in guitars and basses.. I never really ventured over to that dark world of techno and fm synthesis..

Yeah, that was him. I think he later went on to manage the keyboard dept. when Wurlies moved over to Comm Ave.

 

[mp40smg]

1. Could a tech, or someone in the factory, have possibly dialed in this bass to my high standard and playing preference the way I did? Or could they realistically only come so close?

Unless you are able to tell them REALLY specifically, no.

If you were able to tell them: perfectly flat neck, Use abc brand 25-150 string, X" at 12th fret lowest, Y" at 12th fret highest string. Then front pick up x" from middle string, rear pu y" from highest, x" from lowest..

Also "low action" might require:
Cutting the nut deeper (if they have a standard nut they use, this would require manual work).
Depending on the standard bridge (Fender's tend to bottom out pretty quick) using taper core strings.
Possibly shimming the neck.
And also the quality of the fretwork has to be much better than setting up for the standard ham fisted player that won't notice these things.

Most all factories (large scale facility) are never going to do that. A custom builder will.
A factory will set up each guitar the same way every time with +/- variation. The person doing the set ups does it the same way every time in order to push as many per hour as possible out.

In the time it would take to have the tech read and understand the requested specs, set up to those measurements that person could probably have sent out 3-5 standard set ups. Assuming that tech is tasked to push out X per hour, they would not be very motivated to make that happen..

Then, the next person down the line (assume the "final QC") guy is now going to be bogged down by reading and trying to interpret the requested specs, verifying the setter upper's work and now trying to judge if it passes.

What if it is set to your specs, but the final QC guy plays it and it buzzes (he is an aggressive player or is used to playing 100 guitars all day that feel pretty much identical) does he send it back as defective or let it go?

Generally, this is going to be far too much labor, time and judgement than a production line allows for to be cost effective or viable. This is also why many have "custom shops".

 

[electracoyote]

Unless you are able to tell them REALLY specifically, no.

If you were able to tell them: perfectly flat neck, Use abc brand 25-150 string, X" at 12th fret lowest, Y" at 12th fret highest string. Then front pick up x" from middle string, rear pu y" from highest, x" from lowest..

Also "low action" might require:
Cutting the nut deeper (if they have a standard nut they use, this would require manual work).
Depending on the standard bridge (Fender's tend to bottom out pretty quick) using taper core strings.
Possibly shimming the neck.
And also the quality of the fretwork has to be much better than setting up for the standard ham fisted player that won't notice these things.

Most all factories (large scale facility) are never going to do that. A custom builder will.
A factory will set up each guitar the same way every time with +/- variation. The person doing the set ups does it the same way every time in order to push as many per hour as possible out.

In the time it would take to have the tech read and understand the requested specs, set up to those measurements that person could probably have sent out 3-5 standard set ups. Assuming that tech is tasked to push out X per hour, they would not be very motivated to make that happen..

Then, the next person down the line (assume the "final QC") guy is now going to be bogged down by reading and trying to interpret the requested specs, verifying the setter upper's work and now trying to judge if it passes.

What if it is set to your specs, but the final QC guy plays it and it buzzes (he is an aggressive player or is used to playing 100 guitars all day that feel pretty much identical) does he send it back as defective or let it go?

Generally, this is going to be far too much labor, time and judgement than a production line allows for to be cost effective or viable. This is also why many have "custom shops".

Great post, that pretty much explains why hardly anyone is ever happy and content with the factory set up. It's just not possible to please everyone, so that's pretty low on the list of priorities for the factory and music store.

Would a bass that is set up and plays the way you like it sell better? I suppose, assuming 1) Someone could actually anticipate your playing style and do that for you, and 2) You were inexperienced enough to not be able to assess the quality of a bass otherwise. Experienced players can assess even a wacked out bass fairly accurately. (I knew immediately upon inspecting my new 2011 MIM Jazz that is was "one of the good ones," and the set-up I put on it bore that out nicely.)

This underscores the neccesity for the guitar and bass owner to learn how to do their own basic set ups. It's not hard, almost every step (short of nut slot depth) is reversable, a little research and a quick read lets you dial things in the way you like them.

Custom builds and close communication with your builder is about the only other way you're going to get a pre-set bass that you actually like the way it plays, but even in that scenario, I find myself tweaking little things here and there. I think players of all skill and experience levels should just realize that this is an area in which they need to educate themselves and undertake (or pay someone who will), and not expect the manufacturer or music store to do it, especially on mass-produced instruments.

 

[mp40smg]

Great post, that pretty much explains why hardly anyone is ever happy and content with the factory set up. It's just not possible to please everyone, so that's pretty low on the list of priorities for the factory and music store.

All high volume makers are going to set up based on moving them out the door as efficiently as possible to a single standard acceptable to the greatest number.

Would a bass that is set up and plays the way you like it sell better?

To me, yes. To almost anybody else. no. I play extremely lightly with fingers or a pick.

My action is extremely low. Just about any other bass player that tries out my gear says "Wow, this is really low", followed by " I can't make it stop buzzing".

2) You were inexperienced enough to not be able to assess the quality of a bass otherwise.

(IME) Inexperienced players, tend to not be able to really understand set ups or really appreciate much beyond a "standard" set up. And also tend to play much more "aggressively". It's not their fault many have just not realized or come to develop sufficient finger dexterity to vary their right hand technique (or any sort of ability to control any dynamics). Other styles also tend to favor very heavy hands (punk, thrash) where they are essentially playing the role of a tuned bass drum.

 

[tdelamont]

Recently, a keyboard playing friend of mine mentioned that he had a bass that had been gathering dust for a year. He doubled on bass when was younger and bought a MIM P-bass about a year ago, intending to get his bass chops back. He believed he couldn't play it because he didn't have the hand strength that he used to. Well, I took a look at it, and the factory setup was so bad it looked like someone was pulling a bad practical joke. I seriously can not believe anyone at Fender let this thing leave the factory. The action was raised as high as possible. The neck was bowed. The center poles of the pickup were jacked up to about a twenty-degree angle. If you designed a bass to discourage anyone from bass playing, this would be it.

Long story short, I took it home and fixed it. It now plays like an absolute dream, and all the bells and whistles on the high-end basses I have owned through the years can't match the tone and playability of this plain-jane butt-basic bass.

Now, had I played this bass out of the box, I would have thought it was a pig and grumbled about Fender Mexico's quality control being in the toilet. So, for sure, for sure, this setup issue HAS to be costing Fender some sales.

Now my only problem is that my friend keeps asking if I've finished setting up his bass, and I really don't want to give it back.

 

[Johnny Alien]

Recently, a keyboard playing friend of mine mentioned that he had a bass that had been gathering dust for a year. He doubled on bass when was younger and bought a MIM P-bass about a year ago, intending to get his bass chops back. He believed he couldn't play it because he didn't have the hand strength that he used to. Well, I took a look at it, and the factory setup was so bad it looked like someone was pulling a bad practical joke. I seriously can not believe anyone at Fender let this thing leave the factory. The action was raised as high as possible. The neck was bowed. The center poles of the pickup were jacked up to about a twenty-degree angle. If you designed a bass to discourage anyone from bass playing, this would be it.

Long story short, I took it home and fixed it. It now plays like an absolute dream, and all the bells and whistles on the high-end basses I have owned through the years can't match the tone and playability of this plain-jane butt-basic bass.

Now, had I played this bass out of the box, I would have thought it was a pig and grumbled about Fender Mexico's quality control being in the toilet. So, for sure, for sure, this setup issue HAS to be costing Fender some sales.

Now my only problem is that my friend keeps asking if I've finished setting up his bass, and I really don't want to give it back.

This guy had a bass stored for an entire year with no one touching it and you think you were looking at the factory setup when you got it??

This is exactly why Fender gets a bad rap.

 

[tdelamont]

Sitting in a gig bag in climate-controlled environment for a year can't effect anything except neck relief. Screws maybe, might, loosen a bit according to relative humidity, but they certainly don't raise themselves up by four or five turns unless you have a poltergeist problem. Anyways, you'd have had to have seen it in person to realize how out of whack it was.

 

[Johnny Alien]

Sitting in a gig bag in climate-controlled environment for a year can't effect anything except neck relief. Screws maybe, might, loosen a bit according to relative humidity, but they certainly don't raise themselves up by four or five turns unless you have a poltergeist problem. Anyways, you'd have had to have seen it in person to realize how out of whack it was.

I don't live in the worst area ever and I need to adjust my necks a few times a year. I have a friend I do setups on. I did a killer setup on his US Precision and he proceeded to not use it for months and months. He brought it back to me and the neck had an awful bow in it. And that is stored inside his townhouse in the factory case. There is no way you can judge the factory setup in any way. It might have been bad but it might have been fine. The neck bowing will affect the string height and intonation as well.

 

[One Drop]

I don't live in the worst area ever and I need to adjust my necks a few times a year. I have a friend I do setups on. I did a killer setup on his US Precision and he proceeded to not use it for months and months. He brought it back to me and the neck had an awful bow in it. And that is stored inside his townhouse in the factory case. There is no way you can judge the factory setup in any way. It might have been bad but it might have been fine. The neck bowing will affect the string height and intonation as well.

This.

Again, you have no idea how it left the factory. Was it sitting at a shop for a while, etc., etc?