Fender finally dropping silly MSRP (list) pricing?

[tbz]

Selling something at full MSRP is not "ripping off" anyone. If I price something at MSRP and someone is willing to pay it, what's wrong with that. They may have paid more than they had to, but price comparison is the consumers job, not the sellers job. It's also not the sellers job to "give someone" a good deal.

When I sell something on Craigslist I price it high, intentionally, knowing that someone will try to talk me down. If someone doesn't it means I either had it priced to low or found that one person that was willing to pay what I asked.

Even charging MORE than MSRP is not "ripping off". This happens on top their sports cars all the time. It's not uncommon for a top of the line Vette to sell for $15,000 more than MSRP.

Selling a fake Gibson as a real one at the real price is ripping off. Lying about features is "ripping off" someone. Baiting and switching is "ripping off".

A MM Stingray lists at $2000 per Amazon, but actually sells for $1470, similar to GC Mf etc.

If Grandma walks into a store and buys a Stingray for $2000 plus tax, she is getting ripped off. That was how every music store on the planet operated before the internet. Clueless folks pay MSRP, others don't.

Not sure how someone isn't getting ripped off, by paying $530 more than they have to. Maybe we define that term differently?

 

[Flad]

Last I looked the Fender branded stuff had "Advertised Price" but the Squier stuff still had MSRP, it looks as if everything on the site now has the "advertised" pricing! Yeah! Good job FMIC! (BTW the last I looked they were calling it "MOP" and now they're calling it "Advertised Price")

 

[sevdog]

There are plenty of countries and cultures where negotiating is expected and not negotiating is an insult. Many of those cultures dont even put price tags on goods, negotiating is the whole deal. A good is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. That's really simple economics. I dont see how an MSRP is shady.

 

[Flad]

If, like in some other industries, the company were to set the MSRP at the price they actually expect retailers to charge then there is no shadiness. But when they use the MSRP to set a $500.00 price and then everyone and their dog is selling the product for $300....because $300 was the price point to begin with, that's where the shadiness comes in. They never had any intention of retailers selling for $500, they just wanted to artifically inflate the value of the product. The new pricing system is better for the consumer anyway you look at it.

 

[RedHotFuzz]

The issue is here is not MSRP. The issue is how the guitar industry sets an artificially-high MSRP to convey a sense of "bargain" to the consumer. MSRP isn't really MSRP if you have no intention of your retailers selling at that price.

 

[RED J]

MSRP isn't shady. It's the way the business worked pre-internet, pre
cheap Asian competitive goods,and pre-world economy.What it IS is an outdated business model that's so outdated that apparently most don't remember,so it seems "shady" A company can charge whatever they want for goods or services, but good luck getting it in today's world. And now you know why Rickenbacker protects their patents and trademarks so doggedly.

 

[RedHotFuzz]

MSRP isn't shady.

Not in most businesses, no. But for them MSRP is the actual target selling price (unless the individual buyer can negotiate lower). You know what is shady? Stating an MSRP that has no actual relevance to the price you expect (and in the case of MAP, demand) your product to sell at.

 

[RED J]

The only reason you can expect that price is that they have to give it to you to compete ! That's my point fuzz.You can go to any online retailer and get that price, not because you are entitled to it but because they have to compete.It's not shady it's just irrelevant anymore.

 

[Real Soon]

Ah, good ol' capitalism.

If I see an MSRP of X and 100% of established retailers and eBay new item auctions selling at Y, I'm going to conclude that Y is what the maker expected the instrument to sell at while they still went and put X as the MSRP. That makes the MSRP, at best, totally useless, and at worst, an unregulated scamming tactic.

Yes yes, caveat emptor in this laissez-faire branch of the economy, all the good classic terms. Just because the MSRP is legally allowable doesn't make it ethically okay to run on an unsuspecting buyer. And by this point, one could argue that neither is it okay morally.

 

[RED J]

Okay' I'll try this scenario, based on your examples. Go to six online established retailers find a MIM P bass. You will find they all show the same msrp. They will all show the same or close discounted street price. Put the bass in the cart and they automatically charge you the discounted price. They don't try to sneak the msrp in, that would be a scam. Same on eBay.Top dollar items in saturated markets just don't sell.
The only retailers who get by with that anymore are very narrow market specialty items.On most products nowadays msrp is an anachronism, a holdover.
The reason mom and pops have failed is because retail music used to be based on 100% (msrp) markup. If you were a good regular customer or they were in a good mood, they'd cut you a discount.Why do you think brick and mortar stores are disappearing? They can't make a profit for the reasons I stated in my first post. Maybe you guys have not been around long enough to remember this.Retail margins in the saturated world music market are low.MSRP is just part of an outmoded business model,nothing more.

 

[Got2SadowskyNYC]

A MM Stingray lists at $2000 per Amazon, but actually sells for $1470, similar to GC Mf etc.

If Grandma walks into a store and buys a Stingray for $2000 plus tax, she is getting ripped off. That was how every music store on the planet operated before the internet. Clueless folks pay MSRP, others don't.

Not sure how someone isn't getting ripped off, by paying $530 more than they have to. Maybe we define that term differently?

As I said above, "ripping off" is theft usually through misrepresenting something. Also as I said above, if I am charging what someone perceives as "to much" but I'm honest about it I'm not "ripping off" anyone. I'm selling "X" item for "$Y". A person, regardless of age, chooses to pay that or not. This would true if I'm selling something at a lose or if I'm charging 200% of retail. It's their job, as a consumer, to price compare. As a seller, it's not mine. Older folks are not stupid. They know how to price shop and some are really hard bargainers.

Charging more that you personally feel is "fair" is NOT "ripping someone off". Your "feelings" don't matter. Again, as I said above, go try to buy a top their Corvette. You'll be very lucky if you pay sticker, but more than likely you WILL pay more than MSRP. Is Chevy ripping people off? Nope. That's how the law of supply and demand works. This is economics 101. Ford and Dodge do the same thing as well as other industries.

There is one way that charging more than MSRP is ripping people off. Let's use your $2000 MM. If a store is tagging it at $3000 and marking it "on sale" at $2000. This is dishonest, it's a legal grey area (the buyer could make a case of fraud) and would violate the Ernie Ball distributer agreement. Some years ago Mesa Boogie caught a dealer doing this exact thing. Once confirmed Boogie sent a rep. out who pull the stock and their dealership. The store didn't last to long after that because it's reputation was destroyed in the eyes of the consuming public.

Your "grandma" example is severely flawed. I worked at the GC hell hole for a couple years. Never did I have an older person with no knowledge of musical instruments come in and buy a guitar, bass or other expensive item. These people bought gift cards and/or accessories exclusively. My advice to you? Quit trying to protect an imaginary grandma.

Their were some grand parents that bought gear, BUT they were players themselves. They knew what they were doing.

To the folks that liked my other post, congratulations. You graduated to Economics 102.

 

[tbz]

As I said above, "ripping off" is theft usually through misrepresenting something. Also as I said above, if I am charging what someone perceives as "to much" but I'm honest about it I'm not "ripping off" anyone. I'm selling "X" item for "$Y". A person, regardless of age, chooses to pay that or not. This would true if I'm selling something at a lose or if I'm charging 200% of retail. It's their job, as a consumer, to price compare. As a seller, it's not mine. Older folks are not stupid. They know how to price shop and some are really hard bargainers.

Charging more that you personally feel is "fair" is NOT "ripping someone off". Your "feelings" don't matter. Again, as I said above, go try to buy a top their Corvette. You'll be very lucky if you pay sticker, but more than likely you WILL pay more than MSRP. Is Chevy ripping people off? Nope. That's how the law of supply and demand works. This is economics 101. Ford and Dodge do the same thing as well as other industries.

There is one way that charging more than MSRP is ripping people off. Let's use your $2000 MM. If a store is tagging it at $3000 and marking it "on sale" at $2000. This is dishonest, it's a legal grey area (the buyer could make a case of fraud) and would violate the Ernie Ball distributer agreement. Some years ago Mesa Boogie caught a dealer doing this exact thing. Once confirmed Boogie sent a rep. out who pull the stock and their dealership. The store didn't last to long after that because it's reputation was destroyed in the eyes of the consuming public.

Your "grandma" example is severely flawed. I worked at the GC hell hole for a couple years. Never did I have an older person with no knowledge of musical instruments come in and buy a guitar, bass or other expensive item. These people bought gift cards and/or accessories exclusively. My advice to you? Quit trying to protect an imaginary grandma.

Their were some grand parents that bought gear, BUT they were players themselves. They knew what they were doing.

To the folks that liked my other post, congratulations. You graduated to Economics 102.

We clearly have drastically definitions of the term "rip-off", so we will probably never see eye to eye on this.

I should note though that your experience as a sales person does color your perception here. You have probably sold an item for more than someone *could* have bought it for, and have then had to morally justify that to yourself.

I've never worked in a retail or commission based job, so therefore I've never had to justify that. So I can see why we disagree.

That being said, as a pure consumer, if I disagree with the pricing method, doesn't it make sense that Fender is catering to me, and not you, the sales person?

In terms of the grandma thing, I used that as an example. Personally I can recall the first few times I bought a guitar. Pre-internet that was pretty stressful.

We live in a society where haggling is almost non-existent, then one day you walk into a guitar store and have to either learn immediately, or get a sub-par instrument. It's completely illogical in today's era of retail and is an anachronism we can do without. I don't haggle over the price of a pair of jeans, why should I be forced to with a bass.

 

[RedHotFuzz]

There is one way that charging more than MSRP is ripping people off. Let's use your $2000 MM. If a store is tagging it at $3000 and marking it "on sale" at $2000. This is dishonest, it's a legal grey area (the buyer could make a case of fraud)

Yet this is *exactly* what happens with the guitar MSRP scam. Go to Sweetwater. Look at a bass. You see the MSRP, crossed out. Below that is the "Sale Price" in red letters. Wow, it's on sale for a big discount! I'D BETTER ORDER IT RIGHT NOW WHILE IT'S ON SALE!!!

Joke's on you, sucker. The "sale price" is really the *normal price*. The MSRP is *not* the normal price. And never has been. And never will be. It's a psychological con, and Fender is right to get away from it.

 

[Herrick]

With no MSRP, how do we know if we're over-paying?

 

[Kael]

I'm more worried about them switching to a price fixing policy like Mesa uses (not exactly a monopoly but uncomfortably close to one) than them setting what they think their product is worth and then allowing dealers to set the price at whatever they want to to make their profit. Free market...

Of course with Fender going direct (maybe) they will need to set their prices where they want to sell the product.

 

[Got2SadowskyNYC]

That's not what's happening when the MSRP is on the sticker and the MAP is on the sticker. GC uses "GLP". This is honest. It does make it appear that you're saving money and it does confuse the uneducated consumer, but it's honest. JC Penny has gotten a lot of bad price for doing this as of late.

I've never feel of this because I've worked retail, in several industries for 30 plus years. I know how it works. That little internet connected computer in everyone's pocket leaves little to no excuse for everyone else, especially with barcode reading programs like Amazon has.

The MSRP is the MSRP. Everyone knowns this. As I've stated before it's there for retailer cost discounting purposes only. That's why the gear reviews in magazines mention the "street price".

With GC's GLP a sale price or coupon comes of the GLP NOT the MSRP. Again this is totally honest. When a retailer says "It's 50% off" note that it always says below it "off MSRP'. Again, totally honest. You may not like, but it's not ripping anyone off. I agree that it's misleading to the lazy or ignorant shopper, but not dishonest.

"Ripping off" is an emotional statement. I'm talking honest and dishonest, NOT emotion. If some fool pays $50 Million on a USA Jazz bass it's not dishonest as long as it's really an USA Jazz. The buyers stupid, but the sellers' not "stealing" anything unless he's making false claims. For example, selling a MiC Jazz by advertising it as a USA. That's "ripping off" someone.

It's business. Business is business. It's not emotional. Getting emotional and having false sense of what is "fair" is what causes many musicians to never have a chance. As a seller (either products or skills), my job is to get as much money out of your pocket and into mine. As a consumer, my job is to pay the least amount possible for your product or skill. This is how your job works, your grocery store works, electronics store works, etc. This is how society works.

 

[Kmonk]

What difference does it make if they stop showing MSRP? The retail price isn't going to change and that's the only one that really matters.

 

[Moley13]

The change to street pricing seems to have co-coincided with their choice to sell direct from their website.

This. Easy as that. You can't expect to sell at MSRP, so if you're selling online you need to list your actual (expected) price. Fussy people might still email/call up and try to negotiate.

I noticed a huge change in the prices at my local music shops when they got websites and started selling online. Since nobody would pay twice the MAP (seriously, this is how some of their stuff was labelled in-store), the online prices had to reflect what they were actually selling them to folks for. As such, it wouldn't make any sense (and would feel even shadier than before) to have substantially higher prices in-store - so the prices dropped heaps. I was quite glad to see this

Fender are simply experiencing this same phenomena.

 

[chuck norriss]

 

[awilkie84]

Just saw this on the Upfront Guitars blog today:

http://www.upfrontguitars.com/blog/

I haven't seen it mentioned here in TB yet (though it may have been). I salute such a move. MSRP vs street (MAP) pricing in the instrument business is such a crock. Good job Fender. Here's hoping others follow suit.

The thing with MSRP is that it left wiggle room where those sellers with higher buying power could afford to sell the products for less than other retailers. With Fender moving to MAP, they're effectively setting the price with no wiggle room.