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Finding a new band? How much to say up front?

#21
drpepper said:
It's funny...every working band was a start up at some point, so the idea that most start ups are wastes of time is in big part a logical fallacy. Someone long on ideas, knowledge and experience could put together a hot, made-to-order, stage-ready band in 4 months instead of completely discounting the building process and ending up a dissatisfied, frustrated square peg :rollno:

At the end of the day, who's the wannabe? Who's the has-been?
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+1

I can agree with Blue and say that start-ups can be a shot in a dark and aren't always guaranteed to get anywhere. That said, all bands have to start somewhere and you very well could start a band that makes it happen. I wouldn't dismiss guys who are trying to start something right off the bat. I'd give them a listen to see if they sound like guys who know what they are doing.
 
#22
My $.02:

You have some pretty exacting requirements, so I'd suggest you list them out honestly -- as was noted earlier, just filter out as much of the responders who will ultimately fail to click.

Also, the guys who would be put off by that type of ad would probably be put off by your needs anyway, so good riddance.

If your needs in a gig are more open, then I agree with the folks who suggested a short, clear, post -- in those cases, you might find more arrangements that you didn't expect, and that might still work out.

And I'd expect it to take some time, but compare it to "lost" time with bands that don't work out and that might leave you feeling even less motivated to get out and play!

Also note -- you can be explicit about your goals in an band arrangement, and still be concise and humble. Play around with phrases, change the wording up every week or so. "Won't play for less than $100 per person per gig" then maybe "Prefer a pro gigging schedule" or something -- read other ads and see what jobbers say when they go into a gig expecting to get paid. Think of it as fishing -- sometimes you gotta try a different lures while you figure out the local fish...

Good luck man!

ltt
 
#24
sounds to me like you know exactly what you are looking for....so instead of trying to "fit" with another group....why not start your own...then when you advertise for players you can set the ground rules right away? just a thought
 
#25
I keep seeing this same complaint: I want to join a band that is making money, I won't play in a start up band( they can put in all the work, I'll show up at the last minute), it has to be music I LOVE,etc.. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't know alot of songs, cant learn quickly, can't sing, but you'd like at least $100 for your first gig. I play in a band, I've been there since day one, I've seen players come and go, I've frozen my butt off practising in cold shops and garages, argued song choices and always thought it was the highlight of my week to be able to play with other people. If its about money, do something other than music, there has to be an easier way to make a buck. I've posted a multitude of CL ads and every time someone has an attitude about playing like I see here, I just hit delete. What is the waste of time in playing with a start up band? It sounds like an oppurtunity to meet other musicians, maybe learn those songs you don't know, maybe enjoy yourself. Or sit at home, not making music, its your choice.:bassist:
 
#26
nsmar4211 said:
Would it be too much to say what I'm *not* looking for in a CL ad?
If I just say "bass player looking" it'll take me forever to weed through...
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I understand where you're coming from here, but I have always found being too specific with a laundry list of "don't wants" can cheat you out of opportunities and even make you sound a little arrogant.

Rather than telling people what you don't want, get good at spotting it and passing on bands that display issues you don't want to be part of. Put your strengths and tastes in the ad, and express that you're lookng for like-minded players. It sends the same message as blatantly stating what you don't want.

It may take a little more time, but not that much. And you get to make the rounds and see for yourself rather than narrowing your opportunities right from the outset.
 
#27
drpepper said:
It's funny...every working band was a start up at some point, so the idea that most start ups are wastes of time is in big part a logical fallacy. Someone long on ideas, knowledge and experience could put together a hot, made-to-order, stage-ready band in 4 months instead of completely discounting the building process and ending up a dissatisfied, frustrated square peg :rollno:

At the end of the day, who's the wannabe? Who's the has-been?
Click to expand...

So what if every band is a start up at some point what time are you going to invest in that before you find out if it was time well spend ...or wasted? Me, I dont have 4 months to sit and find out if a start up is going to grow into a decent or even good band or be put on the shelf. You or others..maybe so?
IMO and experience most true start ups are a waste of time and I stay clear from them. A band of good experienced musicians putting together a band and and having it ready in a few weeks is ok but some guys in a basement plodding thru 80's covers and trying to figure out what they can and can't play to from a setlist for bar gigs....Nope!
 
#28
aztomr said:
I keep seeing this same complaint: I want to join a band that is making money, I won't play in a start up band( they can put in all the work, I'll show up at the last minute), it has to be music I LOVE,etc.. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't know alot of songs, cant learn quickly, can't sing, but you'd like at least $100 for your first gig. I play in a band, I've been there since day one, I've seen players come and go, I've frozen my butt off practising in cold shops and garages, argued song choices and always thought it was the highlight of my week to be able to play with other people. If its about money, do something other than music, there has to be an easier way to make a buck. I've posted a multitude of CL ads and every time someone has an attitude about playing like I see here, I just hit delete. What is the waste of time in playing with a start up band? It sounds like an oppurtunity to meet other musicians, maybe learn those songs you don't know, maybe enjoy yourself. Or sit at home, not making music, its your choice.:bassist:
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+1000. Everyone would like to come out of the gate making $100+ per show: have everyone else do the dirty work, then just show up, play stuff already in the memory banks, collect $$$. Doesn't work that way, & the more issues (like being slow to pick up songs, a day job limitng what you can do, etc) the less desirable you are to a band that does earn that kind of $$$, & who has already done all the hard work.

If you don't enjoy making music, working with band-mates to improve your sound, basically enjoy the ride of forming/being in a band, then there are better, more lucrative ways to make a buck...IMO...
 
#29
aztomr said:
I keep seeing this same complaint: I want to join a band that is making money, I won't play in a start up band( they can put in all the work, I'll show up at the last minute), it has to be music I LOVE,etc.. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't know alot of songs, cant learn quickly, can't sing, but you'd like at least $100 for your first gig. I play in a band, I've been there since day one, I've seen players come and go, I've frozen my butt off practising in cold shops and garages, argued song choices and always thought it was the highlight of my week to be able to play with other people. If its about money, do something other than music, there has to be an easier way to make a buck. I've posted a multitude of CL ads and every time someone has an attitude about playing like I see here, I just hit delete. What is the waste of time in playing with a start up band? It sounds like an oppurtunity to meet other musicians, maybe learn those songs you don't know, maybe enjoy yourself. Or sit at home, not making music, its your choice.:bassist:
Click to expand...

While I agree on your issue on money I dont agree on the start up band issue. I play for the love of music and any money is second ..if that. I played in a good covers/original country band that payed well and left it to join an originals band that makes decent money that I give back to the band fund for recording and expenses my original band has.

If you are going to demand say $100 a show you better bring it in my band and we will expect you to learn songs on the fly possibly the night of the show or the night before. It could be by email etc. You will have to do good backing vocals and help promote the band, book on your time. A band is a team and there is no room for a weak player. If you want the money do the job and know it.
I played with a few guys over the years who said right out the first and really only reason they played is to be payed. If they were good they got it and were called to sub etc. If they were not good they got the boot along with their ego.
 
#31
I can see your point, to a point. If you are one of those players that can pick stuff up on the fly, has a deep list of songs you know, maybe every start up band wouldn't be right for you. If you were surrounded by similiar players you could be ready instantly( or close). Perhaps you would be bored as we discuss which song to play, etc.. That wouldn't be fun for you. I have a friend who is one of the best guitarists in town( its not a big town....), we love the same music, get along great, but I wouldn't want him in our band. He likes to fly by the seat of his pants, the last time we played out together, he planned on two rehearsals, cancelled the first, the second lasted 20 minutes. We survived the night but I felt we could have been alot better. Pay was no better or worse than usual, its just not my cup of tea. To each their own, I just don't understand how someone can put so many conditions on who they are willing to play with and then complain about a lack of oppurtunities.:bassist:
 
#32
There's nothing wrong with wanting what you want. But, also know that the more limitations you have, the harder it will make it to find an opportunity.

Depending on how competitive your market is, keep in mind that there will others out there who already know lots of songs, can learn new songs quickly or on the fly, have less restraints on their schedule, can sing, and are easy to work with that are also looking for a working band making 100 a night. In the same way that a player ideally wants a band they can just jump into that can deal their limitations, bands (especially working bands) want someone who can just jump in without dealing with limitations.

If that's your competition, then you may want to scale back your expectations, be prepared to up your game, and/or be prepared to bring something to the table like a PA, contacts for gigs, rehearsal space, media production, etc.
 
#33
@ the OP: You should post almost exactly what you posted in your opening here. And then deal with it. Some people will pass you by as arrogant, some will consider you serious, and some will give you a call or an email and try to work with you.

It's just music guys. Everybody takes this **** so seriously. And I'm not addressing just the OP here.

Find like-minded people and go play some music.
 
#35
nsmar4211 said:
... However, I don't want to be in a band that takes less than $100 a man for a local gig, and I'm done with doing "for exposure" gigs.

My possible low points are I'm not a lightning fast learner like some I know (master of cheat sheets though), I can't play by ear yet, I have a 8-5pm job M-F so early gigs require notice, and I don't have the huge classic rock repitoire everyone else seems to have (probably because they grew up with it....I'm in my 30's). I'd need about a month to play 40 new songs (unless I already knew some of them), so I'm not jump right in ready although I'd try (I've done a couple last minute oh-man-what-was-I-thinking gigs though that went well)! I have no samples of my playing other than two 1/8th note type songs to show, even though I tried to get some recordings at shows-my past few groups have been cover bands.
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Slow learner, can't play by ear, small repertoire, job issues, no samples, and looking for $100-a-night gig? See if you can find one for me, too while you're at it.
 
#36
zachoff said:
I just dislike wasting time. If you know what you want, don't accept anything less and you're less likely to waste time.
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Honestly, I think you'll end up wasting time no matter what if you're in the OP's situation. If you sound uptight and picky you won't receive that many responses, and it might take a long time before you get a response that sounds right. If you're looser, however, you'll receive a lot more responses that you'll have to take time to weed through, but you might get a response that sounds intriguing that you can work with, even if it's not your original, ideal band. I've had the latter happen to me a lot, and I honestly don't regret straying from my path a little bit. I've met a lot of talented musicians and great people by loosening my 'needs' up.
 
#37
I don't think the OP's post is unreasonable...I"d put pretty much what you said in your post in your ad(shorter version), but don't point out you can't learn by ear, or that you don't think you know enough songs. Find out what opportunities are out there...you may end up knowing the majority of a setlist for a working band looking, or maybe 3-4 weeks to catch up will be enough time. Saying "I don't have a good ear" might turn off a lot of responses. Let your playing during the audition speak louder than writing down your limitations.

And don't say "won't gig for less than $100," just say you're looking for a working band that books paying gigs, and find out from talking to prospects if it's a potential fit.
 
#38
jmattbassplaya said:
Honestly, I think you'll end up wasting time no matter what if you're in the OP's situation. If you sound uptight and picky you won't receive that many responses, and it might take a long time before you get a response that sounds right. If you're looser, however, you'll receive a lot more responses that you'll have to take time to weed through, but you might get a response that sounds intriguing that you can work with, even if it's not your original, ideal band. I've had the latter happen to me a lot, and I honestly don't regret straying from my path a little bit. I've met a lot of talented musicians and great people by loosening my 'needs' up.
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Where I'm coming from is that you could be doing other stuff besides weeding through a bunch of no-good responses or trying out a bunch of people that probably won't fit if your original ad is succinct. True that it almost always takes longer but the wait is worth it to get the right people for the right situation, IMO.
 
#39
jmattbassplaya said:
Honestly, I think you'll end up wasting time no matter what if you're in the OP's situation. If you sound uptight and picky you won't receive that many responses, and it might take a long time before you get a response that sounds right. If you're looser, however, you'll receive a lot more responses that you'll have to take time to weed through, but you might get a response that sounds intriguing that you can work with, even if it's not your original, ideal band. I've had the latter happen to me a lot, and I honestly don't regret straying from my path a little bit. I've met a lot of talented musicians and great people by loosening my 'needs' up.
Click to expand...

+1

Even though its good to have rules, its also good to be able to flex. I just joined a band that's startup, where the guitarist doesn't drive, the drummer's chops could definitely use improvement,keyboard player with only a little band experience, no set song list, very little web presence, and a house band gig that doesn't pay squat. But, you know what it's one of the most fun bands I've been in. The guitarist is a 12 time winner of best guitarist in Buffalo, the drummer has contacts for gigs, the guitarist not only has chops but can play anything and he's on the same wavelength as me in our views on music and the biz. Actually the whole band has decent chemistry. We play just about anything at our house band gig, and have lots of fun doing it. It's near home, and I don't have to bring anything but my bass. Great way for us to get tight, while building a following. We are getting more bookings, and we have 52 gigs for next year at least and one for NYE. There were lots of red flags for this band, but if I didn't take a risk in having my time wasted, I'd have missed out on a fun and convenient gig, even with the red flags. Sometimes we're too busy looking for red flags that we miss out on a treasure.

I'm having fun even though I'm making less money. And considering what people spend on recreation, and that I've had good paying gigs that made staying home and watching a movie seem appealing, maybe I'm coming out ahead. The goal is to earn some scratch, and we're mostly on the same page, and have some of the components for a good band, so I don't think its unrealistic for good things to happen, even though its just a startup.
 
#40
kesslari said:
IMO, putting what you want and don't want, to a degree, is great. Saves you, and potential bad-fit bands, time and hassle.
I wouldn't be too forthcoming about your self-perceived shortcomings - that can come in conversation.
Make some connections and have fun.
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that doesnt always stop people. i stated in one of mine "i have no intrest in being in a paramore-esque band" and i still got 100s of replys saying "do you want to be in my band, we like paramore"
 

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