Double Bass fingerboard dots and instrument changes...

[damonsmith]

"If markers are good enough for Edgar Meyer..."

It is a good time to point out why and how he uses them. They are best used as a gig/recording tool.
Edgar has high end responsibilities where starting on any number of pitches is required and there may not a be a second take or try. Having them get you through a concert or recording is a fine use of them. Us bass players are VERY often in over our heads.
Using them for practice is absolute folly. When you can't play in tune, it really doesn't matter until you can. Forcing the issue with tuners and dots just delays actually learning the instrument.
Teachers who use them are just being lazy and either want to rush getting an orchestra or band together or not have to hear an out of tune student. It is about them and not the student.
So, it is really about when to say when.
I would say dots are for advanced players with advanced responsibilities.

 

[TheLowDown33]

I have maple inlays on my bass and so far they've been consistently correct over the past year and a half. They are a bit large, so if there was a change, it would have to be fairly drastic to move them past the dot in either direction.

 

[groooooove]

It is a good time to point out why and how he uses them. They are best used as a gig/recording tool.
Edgar has high end responsibilities where starting on any number of pitches is required and there may not a be a second take or try. Having them get you through a concert or recording is a fine use of them. Us bass players are VERY often in over our heads.
Using them for practice is absolute folly. When you can't play in tune, it really doesn't matter until you can. Forcing the issue with tuners and dots just delays actually learning the instrument.
Teachers who use them are just being lazy and either want to rush getting an orchestra or band together or not have to hear an out of tune student. It is about them and not the student.
So, it is really about when to say when.
I would say dots are for advanced players with advanced responsibilities.

this comment has nothing to do with my OP...

but please, the idea that teachers who use them are lazy, is just flat out incorrect.

I am a full time music educator. I am really, really passionate about quality string instrument education.

good teachers differentiate instruction. We find exactly what a particular student needs in order to make it to the next step. In a lot of those cases, fingerboard dots will be a scaffold that facilitates their development. They are just a scaffold, meant to be removed when appropriate.

I always assess the student before thinking of dots. The most I use with a beginner is a sticker marking fingers 1 and 4 in first position, as well as the D at the heel of the neck (nearly all beginner repertoire will be in D major and they'll need a reference for that C#.) I do so with the clear explanation that this is just a guide, and the real way to get those notes perfect is with a technique you can rely on, and training your ears to be sensitive to intonation.

I've 100% had students that would've quit playing if there were no dots. It frustrates most beginners. when a student is frustrated, they are not receptive to learning. I also have many advanced students over the years that I forbid from using dots, because that is what is best for that particular student.

If you were to come to one of my school concerts, (whenever they can happen again!) you would see dots on many fingerboards - nearly all of them. To varying degrees, depending on the instrument. You'd also see students that have to sing their parts in their lessons. Students who are *not* just playing a game of "put my finger on the sticker." They are held to a high standard of playing. They're worried about dynamics, articulation, and phrasing. I have a strong program because I do exactly what I describe. I help each student get better. Sometimes that involves dots. It's not lazy. It's caring about the student more than caring about giving myself a "I'm a purist" pat on the back. I teach grades 4-6 and am very happy with the level of playing I get when they leave my program.

anyway, I have really no interest in continuing that discussion. My OP is about instruments changing over the years and whether or not the dots stay in tune, and if a nice looking sticker provides more "pros" than "cons" over inlaid dots. Happy to continue the education discussion via PM, but for the sake of this topic, lets stay on topic!

anyway,

I'm still happy with the expensive amazon sticker/dots. they work great and haven't moved/fallen off even when i clean my fingerboard.

 

[damonsmith]

I disagree, stand by my statements (which are pretty much the the party line). I also stand by my post being 100% related to any discussion "normalizing" dots, especially when advanced players like Edgar are used to justify them.
Agree that we don't need to continue, but I believe it needs to be said.

this comment has nothing to do with my OP...

but please, the idea that teachers who use them are lazy, is just flat out incorrect.

I am a full time music educator. I am really, really passionate about quality string instrument education.

good teachers differentiate instruction. We find exactly what a particular student needs in order to make it to the next step. In a lot of those cases, fingerboard dots will be a scaffold that facilitates their development. They are just a scaffold, meant to be removed when appropriate.

I always assess the student before thinking of dots. The most I use with a beginner is a sticker marking fingers 1 and 4 in first position, as well as the D at the heel of the neck (nearly all beginner repertoire will be in D major and they'll need a reference for that C#.) I do so with the clear explanation that this is just a guide, and the real way to get those notes perfect is with a technique you can rely on, and training your ears to be sensitive to intonation.

I've 100% had students that would've quit playing if there were no dots. It frustrates most beginners. when a student is frustrated, they are not receptive to learning. I also have many advanced students over the years that I forbid from using dots, because that is what is best for that particular student.

If you were to come to one of my school concerts, (whenever they can happen again!) you would see dots on many fingerboards - nearly all of them. To varying degrees, depending on the instrument. You'd also see students that have to sing their parts in their lessons. Students who are *not* just playing a game of "put my finger on the sticker." They are held to a high standard of playing. They're worried about dynamics, articulation, and phrasing. I have a strong program because I do exactly what I describe. I help each student get better. Sometimes that involves dots. It's not lazy. It's caring about the student more than caring about giving myself a "I'm a purist" pat on the back. I teach grades 4-6 and am very happy with the level of playing I get when they leave my program.

anyway, I have really no interest in continuing that discussion. My OP is about instruments changing over the years and whether or not the dots stay in tune, and if a nice looking sticker provides more "pros" than "cons" over inlaid dots. Happy to continue the education discussion via PM, but for the sake of this topic, lets stay on topic!

anyway,

I'm still happy with the expensive amazon sticker/dots. they work great and haven't moved/fallen off even when i clean my fingerboard.

 

[carl h.]

I disagree with Damon on a lot of things, but on dots we are in 100% agreement. Dots for beginners rarely goes as well as getting them to match pitches and develop muscle memory. On advanced works the well chosen position marker can make a considerable difference. I never use/used lines or dots on a violin, but on bass I currently am recording a score with some stupid octave displacements and am using little pencil marks to drop these random things in on one take. Sure I could get them with muscle memory if I hit the shed, but this is a one and done and not worth taking up so much time.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

It is a good time to point out why and how he uses them. They are best used as a gig/recording tool.
Edgar has high end responsibilities where starting on any number of pitches is required and there may not a be a second take or try. Having them get you through a concert or recording is a fine use of them. Us bass players are VERY often in over our heads.
Using them for practice is absolute folly. When you can't play in tune, it really doesn't matter until you can. Forcing the issue with tuners and dots just delays actually learning the instrument.
Teachers who use them are just being lazy and either want to rush getting an orchestra or band together or not have to hear an out of tune student. It is about them and not the student.
So, it is really about when to say when.
I would say dots are for advanced players with advanced responsibilities.

At this point I think it's quite common for professional players to have dots on the board (and not just EM.) I guess I'm not clear on how that gets extrapolated into shoddy/lazy learning habits? Also, based on the original post, I'm also unclear as to how the OP got slagged as an educator... lame.

 

[damonsmith]

At this point I think it's quite common for professional players to have dots on the board (and not just EM.) I guess I'm not clear on how that gets extrapolated into shoddy/lazy learning habits? Also, based on the original post, I'm also unclear as to how the OP got slagged as an educator... lame.

Correct, so as I said, it is an advanced decision, in this post here:

It is a good time to point out why and how he uses them. They are best used as a gig/recording tool.
Edgar has high end responsibilities where starting on any number of pitches is required and there may not a be a second take or try. Having them get you through a concert or recording is a fine use of them. Us bass players are VERY often in over our heads.
Using them for practice is absolute folly. When you can't play in tune, it really doesn't matter until you can. Forcing the issue with tuners and dots just delays actually learning the instrument.
Teachers who use them are just being lazy and either want to rush getting an orchestra or band together or not have to hear an out of tune student. It is about them and not the student.
So, it is really about when to say when.
I would say dots are for advanced players with advanced responsibilities.

I made a blanket statement about teachers and the OP revealed they themselves did it in their work. I have had MANY students come to me over the years with dots and tape that a band director or orchestra teacher put on and it was holding back every single one of them! If you can't pay in tune the most important thing is to HEAR that you are not playing in tune.

 

[GretschWretch]

I have three dots on my DB: one at the C stop on the G string, one at the octave, and one at the C above the octave (parallax can play havoc with that last one). I rely on ear and muscle memory for shivots; the dots come into play when I have to make a leap of several positions (which may reflect a flaw in my technique).

 

[Up and Away]

At this point I think it's quite common for professional players to have dots on the board (and not just EM.) I guess I'm not clear on how that gets extrapolated into shoddy/lazy learning habits? Also, based on the original post, I'm also unclear as to how the OP got slagged as an educator... lame.

Slight derail but I have always wondered why all guitars (including classical), electric and acoustic basses(including fretless) and banjoes, mandolins, dobros and most other string instruments other than the violin family have dots and/or fingerboard markers and no one ever says anything negative about them. Beginners use them as a reference and experienced players never look at them, I can't see why that shouldn't apply to DB and EUB. I have mentioned this before and never had a reasonable explanation other than "that's the way it is supposed to be and has always been".
Many of us aren't full time highly trained pro players and can only devote so much time to being perfect, we work at developing our muscle memory and ears but don't have the drive, time or ability to reach a high level of playing, we do the best we can and it works and if the occasional glance at a mark on the fingerboard helps then that's OK. We play in bands and get by and work to improve while we admire those who are much better than we are. Think of it compared to sports where a few elite athletes effortlessly can do things that we struggle along with and hope to improve but we can do OK in a league or level of competition we take part in. Most musicians will never be at the elite level, we do the best we can and the dreams of huge crowds, famous venues and playing with our heroes( some of mine are here on TB) have faded a long time ago.
I'll be 75 in a couple of months and have been gigging for almost 60 years on various instruments from occasional gigs to full time and I have fun and get paid for it. I am still a hack player working at improving but time is not on my side and I'd rather have a few dots on my bass than devote myself to perfect intonation for a few years instead of getting out and making music with the bands I'm in. I love playing bass but it is not my entire life as it is for some people on here and I'm happy that way, I know my own limitations.
Sorry if this sounds like a rant, just a little frustrated with the never ending debate about dots. I taught music in high schools and I think whatever works to get someone playing music is good, we won't(can't) all be virtuosos, let's keep learning and improving and have some fun.

 

[Tunk]

i've had dots installed on all my basses for years... 4 instruments over the last 10 or so years...

they always seem to adjust out of place over time.

recently I had them removed from a bass (luthier did an invisible repair filling holes with ebony) and decided to try the 1/8" silver fingerboard dot stickers from amazon. I placed three on the fingerboard as I normally would've had them inlaid.

looking at my bass side by side with my backup bass (inlaid dots) - honestly, I can't tell a difference. the inlaid dot is no more elegant, or better looking in any way.

seeing as how dots are relatively normal these days (lets leave that argument for another thread all together ) i'm curious to hear opinions:

if you had dots inlaid (especially on a brand new instrument) did they stay accurate over years?

makers, why not go with stickers? does it just seem too 'cheap' for a fine string instrument?

when carefully done, as of today i prefer the sticker - and if this instrument works out, i'm probably going to have them removed and replaced with stickers for my other instrument.

here are the ones I tried:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01GKX3KGQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It is not the dots changing it is your bridge. Adjust it and all will be fine.

 

[james condino]

White out pen.

 

[Papageno]

A tiny drop of tipp-ex corrector does the job.
It is effective, discreet. You can place in a few seconds, and remove it when you don't want it any more. It costs about 0.0001$.

 

[groooooove]

It is not the dots changing it is your bridge. Adjust it and all will be fine.

checked that... bridge is in good health and to my eye properly positioned.

 

[Sam Reese]

Hole punch and reflective tape with a meticulously placed dot at "F". I was thinking about dots the other day and realized I really like having them on my basses, but don't rely on them during performance. The ear is mightier than the dot.

 

[Don Hergert]

checked that... bridge is in good health and to my eye properly positioned.

I still like my inlaid rhinestone side markers, but they never were, never are, and were never intended to be, exact to-the-note markers; at best they are most often reflecting dim light in the dark, or anytime that all I can do is feel the neck, providing hints of where to start listening for the exact note. For anyone who goes by viewing their neck geometry or by the feel of their double bass neck for finding their starting position, whether or not they have markers, the process is exactly the same.

I'd say expecting any kind of marker on a double bass to be exact to-the-note is probably being a little unrealistic given all the visual perspective and manual physics involved with stopping a note. And even if the markers are close, next time the instrument is setup, or re-strung, or has someone else play it, or gets rained on, or gets hot, or has else anything happen that can cause a double bass or its strings or its nut or its bridge or its neck or its fingerboard to change, the markers will be less close.

On fretted instruments, the frets identify the exact notes, no matter where any markers are located. On a double bass (or any other fretless stringed instrument), the ears identify the exact notes, no matter where any markers are located.

Probably also worth keeping in mind... Fingerboards on double basses are near the top of the list for being replaced as they get heavily used, rutted, re-profiled multiple times, or in any other way worn or damaged. At the time of fingerboard replacement, any markers inlaid in the fingerboard will be gone too. If a fingerboard has inlaid markers that are unwanted, it is probably most practical to just ignore them and wait until the fingerboard is replaced.

 

[groooooove]

I still like my inlaid rhinestone side markers, but they never were, never are, and were never intended to be, exact to-the-note markers; at best they are most often reflecting dim light in the dark, or anytime that all I can do is feel the neck, providing hints of where to start listening for the exact note. For anyone who goes by viewing their neck geometry or by the feel of their double bass neck for finding their starting position, whether or not they have markers, the process is exactly the same.

I'd say expecting any kind of marker on a double bass to be exact to-the-note is probably being a little unrealistic given all the visual perspective and manual physics involved with stopping a note. And even if the markers are close, next time the instrument is setup, or re-strung, or has someone else play it, or gets rained on, or gets hot, or has else anything happen that can cause a double bass or its strings or its nut or its bridge or its neck or its fingerboard to change, the markers will be less close.

On fretted instruments, the frets identify the exact notes, no matter where any markers are located. On a double bass (or any other fretless stringed instrument), the ears identify the exact notes, no matter where any markers are located.

Probably also worth keeping in mind... Fingerboards on double basses are near the top of the list for being replaced as they get heavily used, rutted, re-profiled multiple times, or in any other way worn or damaged. At the time of fingerboard replacement, any markers inlaid in the fingerboard will be gone too. If a fingerboard has inlaid markers that are unwanted, it is probably most practical to just ignore them and wait until the fingerboard is replaced.

all good points.

I feel like my original perspective has gotten lost: I play, and teach my students to play, in tune by using my ears. I can play a bass just fine without dots.

Of corse, I like them and think they help refine huge shifts. not really that big of a deal.

anyway, it is so true that a dot can only be so "right." what I want to point out is that mine are noticeably wrong, like.. seemingly nowhere near the original note.

I feel like I can conclude my own thread by saying: a violinmaker can remove and fill the dots easily. it diddn't take much work for mine to get fixed and it came out great. expensive stickers look nice, and are really practical.

 

[MrSidecar]

To the OPs first question about the dots/markers becoming wrong over time, several variables can be at play- such as action (if it varies either by screws or weather), bridge position/warping/bending, and let’s not forget inconsistencies in strings (gut strings IME especially can do weird things pitch wise).

Then, there is the fact that bass bridges are not compensated, meaning that a dot that’s correct for the E string easily can be off for the g-string.

And there’s one more thing that doesn’t get too much attention I believe, and that’s temperament, or temper (what is the correct English expression? I don’t know). The only instruments where a C always is a C are keyboards and pianos. And on a piano, lots of notes are not mathematically in tune. On other instruments, playing in tune means adjusting the intonation on the fly in respect to either where a certain pitch sits in the tonality or, if a piano player is part of the music, what the piano player offers, or, in case of no tonality… yeah what do you do then? I suppose what sounds best in the situation.

So there will always be inaccuracies with markers. Which is a good reason to

- either, as Damon states, use them in high-risk situations only, and

- preferably adapted to the situation you’re in when you have to hit that one note you never seem to find 100% without a marker, which includes the internalised mantra “this dot is only for the d-string” or whatever, or

- not at all.

I have experiences teaching folks with markers that echo Damon’s, so I don’t use them for my students. I know at least one top notch teacher who has lots of great sounding students of all ages below 18 who all started out with markers and sound great- so my colleague seems to know a secret about markers .

Whenever I use markers in high risk situations on my bass (VERY rarely), I’m using a pencil. Wipes off easily after the job with your finger. I have yet to meet a situation where I would need the marker to be more visible.

edit: typing this on my phone took forever so someone certainly beat me to all my points. Sorry if that’s the case.

Best
Sidecar

 

[Sam Reese]

edit: typing this on my phone took forever so someone certainly beat me to all my points. Sorry if that’s the case.

I feel for you.

 

[kinopah]

I went the 1st 25 years of playing db w no dots, solely for judgy, (and what I considered) puristic reasons.
Used another player's bass at a recent gig with tiny dots at 5, 7, 9, and 12, and the next day I was in there with the silver sharpie on mine. I 100% feel that when I was starting, dots would have caused me to look at the fingerboard differently and would have stunted MY (can't speak for all beginners) fb potential, intonation, and ear, among other things. But NOW, having played for decades, I recognize the value in the added sensory input when I need to come in on pitch.

TL;DR I'm glad I spent a lot of time without em, but have come around to appreciate them as a reference point.

 

[Sam Reese]

Well stated kinopah