Double Bass Fingerboard removal and/or replacement

[GretschWretch]

If one needs to remove a fingerboard or wants to clean a fingerboard of old glue before refitting it, and wants to use alcohol to re-granulate the glue, what type of alcohol should one use? Will regular isoprophyl alcohol suffice, or should I seek out a more "specialized" type?

 

[RSBBass]

I am not clear on what you mean by "re-granulate". Heat, in the form of hot water or steam (or a hot tool) can be used to soften hide glue and most wood glues. Alcohol can make hide glue more brittle which can make cleanup easier. Any available kind of alcohol will work. Be careful if you are working around finishes as it can damage some.

 

[GretschWretch]

I have been looking at some internet sites, both videos and tutorials, on removal, including ones from Upton. Their approach for removal seems to be to wick alcohol into the seam between neck and fingerboard (once a separating blade has been inserted) and tap the blade down until full separation is achieved. The only time(s) in the past I have had to remove a fingerboard I used the blade and heat approach, which worked for me.

Regarding the cleaning prior to installing a fingerboard, I had thought to brush alcohol on the mating surfaces between neck and 'board and then scrape them clean using an old credit card. I just want some assurances that I am right before I go ahead.

 

[David Potts]

Once you have the board off and if you have old hide glue to remove then using warm to hot water on a rag laid over it and left for a while should soften and swell it before scraping off. Finally use the rag and hot water to remove/rub off the remainder. If the glue is a synthetic then scraping it off both surfaces with a rectangular metal scraper to reveal the wood as best possible is my choice. I would probably then gently sand both surfaces with a medium sandpaper over a flat hard block and score crosses into both surfaces before regluing using hide glue. I have never tried to use alcohol.

 

[robobass]

Pickling vinegar in a syringe bottle works really well. Naturally clean the surfaces thoroughly afterwards. I'd imagine that alcohol is also quite effective.

David: I don't think scoring the surfaces is useful.

 

[GretschWretch]

Thanks for all your replies. I will explore, and probably test, all approaches: moisture/heat, alcohol, vinegar. Once I get the 'boards off my intention is to scrape things clean using an old credit card; no metal. Before removing anything I plan to take measurements regarding length and width, especially to see if there is side overhang. I realize a new bridge will have to be cut to conform to the curvature of the new 'board.

The two times I have done this I would have to consider successes. In one case the donor bass was a Kay; in the other the receiving bass was a Kay. The replacement boards in each instance were perfect fits; no trimming required.

Since I am on the soapbox I will vent my frustrations over having to do any fingerboard exchanges at all. I have been forced to because in each instance the receiver bass was a school bass whose fingerboard had been overdressed from the nut to about the third stop. Some tech just went nuts with the plane and the drawknife.

I have successfully filled ruts and chip-outs using a paste of CA glue and sanding dust, but those were either short or narrow, or both. The 'boards to be removed have troughs that are inches long. How does one fill and bring up to level surface that? The only way out I see is to remove and replace the flawed fingerboard.

But then what do I do with the removed 'boards? The only outs I see are to cut off the offending end and repurpose the shortened 'board for a fractional sized bass or use the doffed fingerboard to make nuts and tailpiece saddles from.

Waiting to hear from more experienced hands.

 

[turf3]

I don't know if these are ebony, or just rock maple painted black, or something else, but given the limited supply of exotic fingerboard-type woods, it certainly seems that by now someone would have developed a way to "recap" a fingerboard with 1/8" of hard material (I'm thinking of something like black Corian).

 

[GretschWretch]

The two "badly worked" fingerboards I mentioned both are rosewood. For the present project the 'board to be removed is stained white wood while the replacing board is a nice thick slab of rosewood (with an appalling number of inlaid brass position markers).

I have seen advertised, in Howard Core and other luthier suppliers, a fingerboard "veneer," but there is not much in the way of a pic or a description. I would consider a veneer for those troughed areas on the DB boards, but I *really* would need it for one of my bassoguitars, whose fingerboard is deeply rutted from one end to the other and across all four strings; and when one considers that all this damage was done with gut strings the gut response (sorry) is terrifying. Conventional wisdom says fill the ruts with the CA/dust paste, but there isn't enough rosewood sanding dust in the entire state of Alabama to take on this job.

Still, because it is the original 'board, I would like to save it. I'm having to replace the original fingerboard on one of my other bassoguitars because it has been dressed so many times the edges are at knife-blade sharpness. But, ruts aside, the fingerboard on #3 still has plenty of wood.

 

[Steven Ayres]

With a board that's rutted to the point where dressing it would make it too thin, AND I want to keep it (e.g. old Brazilian rosewood), I'd consider shimming it up before replacing it, using the same material as the neck.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Yeah, shim it. A little more height should help the response and you’re already fitting a new bridge.

 

[GretschWretch]

I think I may have generated some confusion by introducing the bassoguitar into the discussion. No amount of shimming beneath the fingerboard would help there, I think. That would not address the problem of the rutting on the top side. Perhaps just flipping the fingerboard over so that the ruts are on the neck side? I still would have to clean and dress the verso side of the 'board, which would be the one the strings met.

Regarding the DBs, the "replacement" fingerboard is plenty thick and would not need shimming. But I'm going to have to go back and review my parts sources. My distinct memory is that shims and veneers are two different things used for quite different purposes.

Still, thanks to @Steven Ayres and @KUNGfuSHERIFF for taking the time and trouble to respond. I will look into their suggestions.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

If you want to shim and donut only on the neck part the overstanding part of the fingerboard might be too thin and therefor too flexible.
And you cannot shim the very end of the fingerboard where wood is intentionally removed from the underside of the board (but that might not be need if your shim reaches this point).

 

[David Potts]

From way back somewhere I was told that gut strings are more abrasive, more so than flat wound steel, in causing ruts (grooves) in the ebony fingerboard under the lower (1/2 and !st) positions. When I started playing in early 1963 my bass was strung with all gut, including the copper-wound E string. A few years later it was gut on the top two and steel on the bottom two. The few new brands of basses imported at the time were all fairly mediocre and from Europe. Most of the basses were turn-of-the century German factory instruments that supplied the local music scene of theatres, dance halls and restaurants before early jazz, recordings and talking pictures. They almost all had bad grooves in the fingerboard to address. Since finding Pirastro in the mid 60s I have never had more than minor grooves that were easy to resolve.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

From way back somewhere I was told that gut strings are more abrasive, more so than flat wound steel, in causing ruts (grooves) in the ebony fingerboard under the lower (1/2 and !st) positions. When I started playing in early 1963 my bass was strung with all gut, including the copper-wound E string. A few years later it was gut on the top two and steel on the bottom two. The few new brands of basses imported at the time were all fairly mediocre and from Europe. Most of the basses were turn-of-the century German factory instruments that supplied the local music scene of theatres, dance halls and restaurants before early jazz, recordings and talking pictures. They almost all had bad grooves in the fingerboard to address. Since finding Pirastro in the mid 60s I have never had more than minor grooves that were easy to resolve.

Just curious David, which is your preferred Pirastro?

 

[james condino]

 

[David Potts]

For quite a long time I used Original Flexicor on one bass and New Flexicor on the other, then along came D'Addario Medium Tension Orchestral. More lately I have settled on Bel Cantos for the orchestral playing in my community group. I no longer have the spare income to try other brands like Evah Pirastri. More lately I am trying to sell my two good basses in our relatively small market and am now in the process of setting up my end-of-career replacement, a new less expensive Romanian Gliga 3/4 bass called Vasile Superior that has come supplied with D'Addario Medium Tensions. Once I get past the current bout of Soundpostitis I will probably go back to Bel Cantos. IMO the early Pirastro Flexicors of the mid 60s were better than the Originals that came later. They seemed to have more life and better quality of sound.

 

[GretschWretch]

If you want to shim and donut only on the neck part the overstanding part of the fingerboard might be too thin and therefor too flexible.
And you cannot shim the very end of the fingerboard where wood is intentionally removed from the underside of the board (but that might not be need if your shim reaches this point).

Oh dear. My introducing the bassoguitar has only muddied the waters from my initial post, I fear. My OP was seeking advice on the best (i.e., potentially least damaging) method to remove a fingerboard from a double bass. No need for shims, no need for veneers (and in this context I have no idea what a donut is; never heard of it); just removing and swapping fingerboards.

You are correct that the overstanding part of the fingerboard on the bassoguitar was too flexible, which I countered by placing a reinforcement underneath it (which reinforcement seems to be part of the factory version, but for some reason this bassoguitar -- my #1 -- is lacking. My "fix" worked, but I finally concluded that that fingerboard was just too thin.

But I think the initial question in my OP has been satisfactorily answered, so I will sally forth with the "doing." My apologies for blurring the lines by introducing the bassoguitar into the discussion.

 

[GretschWretch]

From way back somewhere I was told that gut strings are more abrasive, more so than flat wound steel, in causing ruts (grooves) in the ebony fingerboard under the lower (1/2 and !st) positions. When I started playing in early 1963 my bass was strung with all gut, including the copper-wound E string. A few years later it was gut on the top two and steel on the bottom two. The few new brands of basses imported at the time were all fairly mediocre and from Europe. Most of the basses were turn-of-the century German factory instruments that supplied the local music scene of theatres, dance halls and restaurants before early jazz, recordings and talking pictures. They almost all had bad grooves in the fingerboard to address. Since finding Pirastro in the mid 60s I have never had more than minor grooves that were easy to resolve.

This particular bassoguitar (my #3) has crazy bad ruts, as you will see when I post its photo-op. It's just . . . just. . . .

I do have something else, which as nearly as I can tell is one of these

that has minor rutting which I can address personally, but that bass has so many other major, major things wrong with it that I will not even attempt repairs. That one for sure is going to a pro.