First mixer/PA system - trade offs

[Medicine Man]

Here's my take on small pa tradeoffs:
1. Powered tops are more expensive, but make setting up easier, especially if people are inexperienced. Don't skimp by buying cheap mains. This also let's you use all xlr cables without having to worry about speaker wire.
2. You can get cheaper old heavy stuff , ie power amps and unpowered cabs, but it is less plug and play, more to set up.
3. Digital boards have a learning curve, but save time long term because you can save settings and all the eq and compression is built in per channel. Most importantly, you can have individual monitor mixes.
4. If you buy a tablet driven system with no faders, buy a dedicated router for the tablet. I like the whole board, but you can save big money here if you must. 12 to 16 channels covers most things that don't have house sound.
5. Dont forget to budget stands and cables.
6. Upgrade to powered wedge monitors first, but these can be a cheaper brand.
7. Add a powered sub as the next thing.

Come to an agreement about ownership and use of the equipment before you buy it!!!

 

[ezstep]

Long run probably 2 keyboards, bass, 2 guitars, drums, 2-3 vocals. I thought 12-16 channels would be enough, and my understanding is you can add sub-mixing boards later if you need to expand.

Look at the costs of a 12-channel compared to a 16-channel compared to 20-channel. There is not a huge difference. SoCal80's is correct - buy about twice the channels that you think you might need.

If you are anywhere near north Louisiana, run by my house and I will give you some old EV 1508's - needs one tweeter (diaphragm). Free of charge. But, you can find lots of non-powered cabs locally for just a little money. I am sure other "old" musicians have a lot of FOH speakers and monitors stored in a barn somewhere.

 

[Marko 1]

I'm thinking "back yard" type of situations.

I could be wrong, but I think everyone so far is overestimating what you're looking for, so...

Something like this can be done with an 8-channel powered box mixer (everything doesn't have to be in the PA),

two Peavey PR15s (those plastic speakers), super light, and the woofers go pretty deep,

and same Peaveys but 12” for monitors, a couple to cover everybody.

Used this can be gotten for a song, then if you get bigger gigs later, you don't have a million dollars invested, and then go get better.

If I'm underestimating what your looking for right now, then listen to all the other good recommendations, including a digital mixer and powered speakers.

One setup I'd consider:

Used PreSonus Studio Live 16.4.2 mixers go pretty cheap these days, and no need for any rack gear.

Definitely powered speakers and monitors, whatever you can afford.

I just heard an "Alto Professional" PA, 15" tops and 18" Subs (I'd get 12" tops) and it did the job.

 

[Wasnex]

IMHO a digital mixer and powered speakers will have the most potential and also be the most efficient for skilled audio tech. The problem is learning how to use digital gear. In addition to learning how to run audio, you will need to learn and maintain fluency in the user interfaces for the mixer and speakers. Many people are far more comfortable with analog interfaces and old school gear.

If you have a natural interest in acoustics and physics, I would say go digital. If you are not really all that interested, you may be better off with analog. If you are somewhat of an audio nerd, consider digital. If you are definitely not a nerd, you are probably better off with analog.

In order to be successful with analog you will also want some processing to include (ideally) a 31 band graphic EQs for each mix and effects processors that can be used to add reverb and delay. All of this processing and much more tends to be built in to digital mixers. But setting it up and adjusting it means stepping through lot's of pages to drill down into submenus.

Learning the how to navigate the menus is not actually all that hard, but you have to actually have a grasp on how a mixing board works for it to all make sense. Essentially you need to able to imagine the entire system in your head.

A digital system will typically have way more processing than an analog system, unless you spend lot's of money and carry a bunch of big outboard effects racks. Once you gain fluency on a digital system, it tends to be way easier and faster to make adjustments, and you tend to have way more control and better awareness of signal levels.

Which is best depends somewhat on you and what you find interesting. I have had pretty much a life-long fascination with sound, so digital would be my person choice if I were actually working regularly.

Since I am not working regularly and doubt I ever will be a gain, I keep some older analog gear around to play with. Digital boards are actually surprisingly cheap if you consider how much processing power they provide...but it does not really make sense to buy digital unless I will actually use it.

I mixed mostly on smaller Yamaha digital boards like the 01V, LS9, and DM1000. The user interface and basic mixing strategy for all of them was similar but not identical. This similarity helped me get up to speed quickly whenever I needed to learn and use a new Yamaha board.

If I had a reason to justify a new digital board I would probably get a Midas M32 or possibly a Pro 1. I believe the user interface and mix strategy is a bit different for these mixers, so I would have a steeper learning curve.

All of the digital boards I used had built in control surfaces, but I still needed to be able to visualize the system and efficiently navigate their virtual interfaces.

I could also see a benefit is something like a Midas MR18. With this type of mixer, there is not an analog user interface, so you make all the adjustments using a tablet computer or perhaps a phone app. The idea with this sort of mixer is you can walk around with a tablet and make adjustments rather than taking up space with a big physical console. This type of stagebox mixer is pretty common with bar bands, and many companies make comparable units.

 

[2thAche]

In our short year of gigging, we've gone from #2 and floor monitors to #3 and in-ears. I would not want to go back to #2.

We've pretty much rolled all our gig $ into equipment and it's been a huge improvement. Except then you need a sound guy. We're still figuring that out lol.

 

[flannel cat]

We use a 16 channel SoundCraft a power amp and two big monitors..only thing i have to say go with those powered monitors..their nice and lightweight ,and put out just as good if not better than big back breakers,, lighter makes for quick set up time. (and you still have energy to mosh about!)
Have a great time when the gigs start rolling in! Cheers.

 

[ashtray]

The “starter pack” PA’s are a great place to start. Powered mixer, usually 4 channels and not many features. Maybe 200 watts. And a pair of matching speakers. Perfect for rehearsal space without going crazy with the volume. Good for vocals. You can use it for small gigs or as monitors in a future system.

I wouldn’t go crazy with a huge professional PA for just starting out. Someone’s gotta buy it. Then once you start gigging and need to buy new cables, etc, who pays for that if the whole band is using it? It gets to be a whole thing. Best to just keep it small to start out, then upgrade to a large setup later once you actually need it.

 

[semiprohooker]

We lucked out getting our first PA setup 18 months ago. MOst of the gigs we played had PAs supplied (festivals for the most part) but were looking to expand to be able cover smaller venues if needed. We did go route 1 - used crown XLS power amps and passive speakers with a 2u rack PA. We got stupid lucky and found what I am assuming was a super sale or decimal point in the wrong position and scored a presonus series III 32R rack mixer for $169.90. We're using as an interface for recording right now too.

HOLY COW. That's definitely a decimal error. I would've bought a couple at that price. Where was this at?

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I'm in a little group of beginner musicians working our way toward an eventual performance. We're starting to realize that we need a small mixer/amp/speaker setup to be able to play in small places that have no support at all. I'm thinking "back yard" type of situations. This is mostly for microphones and keyboard but possibly guitar, drums and bass as well.

In my simple minded view of the thing, there are 3 basic parts to consider: Mixer, Power Amplifier and Speakers. I see you can buy these as separate parts, or you can get the power amp integrated in either the mixer or speakers.

Are there any major trade-offs or pros/cons to consider between these options?

1. separate mixer, amp, speakers
2. powered mixer + speakers
3. mixer + powered speakers
4. integrated mixer/amp/speaker

Passive speakers are cheaper, more customizable, and have much better longevity.

But, they require amplifiers and possibly external crossovers.


Powered speakers require that every single speaker have its own power source. But, the amps are built for the speaker cabinet w/ various features built in. Problem, amp goes out, speaker is done. And, they're much more expensive. Also, you get what you get. Buy that one, have to buy another one to expand. And, they're much more expensive.

 

[Ethereal Thorn]

Any system you end up getting the amount of monitor auxiliary outputs should be a big focus imho some bands can handle shared mixes but it drives me crazy

 

[joe grime]

I would opt for a Behringer xr18 mixer, this gives you 6 aux outputs for in ear /monitors each band member can operate their own monitors via mixing station app. has 18 channel soundcard for recording or output click track / DAW input output, and good inbuilt effects.
From there xlr out to powered 12" mains, RCF, Yamaha would be my choice. Add a pair of speaker stands and you are there.

 

[el murdoque]

If I was to build a PA rig right now, scalability would be one of the concerns.
I would always opt for a mixer and either powered cabs or poweramp and cabs.

With the mixer, I'd go either Behringer X32 if I needed a desk mixer with faders and all, Behringer X32 rack version if I needed all the in and outputs but not a desk mixer because room is an issue and there won't be a dedicated sound person on most gigs, or Behringer X-Air 18 if I can do with less ins and outs than the X32 rack version has. (in any case, I'd add a capable 5ghz WiFi router to make sure there are no connection issues).


A powermixer locks you in with what you got and I don't really understand the appeal of that.

With powered cabinets vs. power amp and cabinets there are certain things to think about.
When you run a 4 channel power amp to have 2 subs and 2 tops powered, you need to run speaker cables. Those big, heavy and unwieldy snakes are not really fun to handle.
Powered cabs can be run off XLR cables, and you have a bunch of those in any case.
If your XLR cable is too short, you can simply add another one.
Powered cabs also give you the option to add as many as you like (or leave some at home).
The downside is that you will have to run two cables - signal and power.

 

[31HZ]

It sounds as if one of the challenges is figuring out just how much rig to buy.

If you just need vocals and acoustic guitar, then a small analog mixer, one/two 10" powered speakers, and a few decent mics will be all that you need.

However, if you want to eventually put an entire band through it, I would recommend a digital mixer, two powered speakers with stands, and probably a subwoofer (though you don't "need" one) along with a complement of mics. You'll also need for a member of the band (you?) to spend more time learning how to use the system, and to have room to store it somewhere.

I'm not the right guy to ask, maybe, because I spend more to get better sound quality and ruggedness/durability (mics, speakers, subs, stands etc.) than I need to; having said that, the Soundcraft Ui24r digital mixer is about the least expensive part of my rig and I wouldn't trade it for anything twice its price.

 

[Standalone]

Thanks guys - so far a couple of votes to avoid the integrated mixer/amp. It does sounds like good advice in terms of expansion capability.

@Jason Stock - we don't really have any particular mixers in mind yet. I usually shop at Sweetwater and see the usual suspects - Yamaha, Behringer, Tascam, Presonus etc. I'll really need to dive into the reviews and options. We'll probably need to work toward the lower end of the price range but I don't think we necessarily have to go with the absolute lowest. Maybe something like a mid-range Yamaha, 12-16 channels.

This is the way to go if you have the transportation space. Separate -- if you look and are in a decent area for used gear -- is fairly cheap. A midrange Yamaha or Mackie is a good idea. I recommend a used QSC GX7 -- lighter and more powerful than the GX3 and 5; and you can run two nice mains and two nice monitors (one channel for each, you don't need "stereo" unless you're trying to do some serious psychedelic swirling effects like it's 1967 San Francisco) and, like I did for my band, expand to a pair of them so that you can run three channels (three separate monitor mixes and a mains mix).

We eventually also upgraded to a presonus StudioLive, and put our mackie in the rehearsal space.

 

[brianrost]

For playing in backyards you need almost nothing, you can pick up a used powered mixer and two passive speakers for a few hundred bucks and you're on your way.

If you eventually graduate to playing in bars and such on your way to stardom, you might need something more but I wouldn't go looking at 16 channel mixers right off! I've been gigging for over 40 years and most of the band PAs were 6-8 channel powered heads and passive speakers, even today. I eventually owned my own 12 and 16 channel mixers because I ran into some situations where 8 inputs wasn't enough.

As an example of how cheap the old gear is I sold my entire PA in 2019 for $600. Carvin powered mixer with 12 channels and four 400W power amps and four graphic EQs for stereo mains and two monitor mixes, two Community 15" mains, two EV 12" for monitors, a snake, about a dozen mikes, mike and speaker stands, etc. Nowadays I gig in bars with systems (not mine) that are a lot simpler than that, just like I did before I bought that PA. I'm amazed that most of the people I gig with don't even own vocal monitors!

Seriously, don't lay out lots of dough for playing backyard parties until you know that either band or you as a gigging bassist are in or the long haul.

 

[SoCal80s]

...Powered cabs can be run off XLR cables, and you have a bunch of those in any case.
If your XLR cable is too short, you can simply add another one.
Powered cabs also give you the option to add as many as you like (or leave some at home).

I completely agree on these points. Being able to use XLR's to feed powered cabs has many advantages!

...The downside is that you will have to run two cables - signal and power.

While it is something to consider, I have to run power to the front of the stage anyway for my pedalboard. So plugging in the speakers there is not much added work.

 

[DirtDog]

If you get a digital mixer, you won't need a graphic eq.

true - but then you have the overabundance problem. EQ on each input/channel, EQ for monitor mixes, GEQ for main signal out. It can get very messy very quickly. Same with gain and compression.

But, if you don't overdo it with any of these at any point in the signal chain, chances are it'll be better than not having any.

Learning to ring out the monitors is a good skill for a PA operator to have.

 

[Engle]

true - but then you have the overabundance problem. EQ on each input/channel, EQ for monitor mixes, GEQ for main signal out. It can get very messy very quickly. Same with gain and compression.

But, if you don't overdo it with any of these at any point in the signal chain, chances are it'll be better than not having any.

Learning to ring out the monitors is a good skill for a PA operator to have.

Once you learn how to ring out the system with a digital board, you are miles ahead of what you can do with an analog board.

 

[gstaats]

HOLY COW. That's definitely a decimal error. I would've bought a couple at that price. Where was this at?

This was back in August of 2021. Was backordered until December that year. I only ordered one as I didn't want to draw attention. We're starting to use it for recording - sounds good as an interface. We were able to run 16 channels on the drums - a nice interface/PA really opens things up for the band. We also multi-track some of our longer rehearsals and use IEMs. Easier on the ears and we get to better tweak songs.

 

[gstaats]

true - but then you have the overabundance problem. EQ on each input/channel, EQ for monitor mixes, GEQ for main signal out. It can get very messy very quickly. Same with gain and compression.

But, if you don't overdo it with any of these at any point in the signal chain, chances are it'll be better than not having any.

Learning to ring out the monitors is a good skill for a PA operator to have.

It is better having the tools and not needing or using them than not having the tools and needing them. The digital mixers I've used are really easy to get basics up and running. I'd never go back to an analog or non-rack mixer. Love using my 15" touchscreen 2-1 laptop as my mixer control.