First mixer/PA system - trade offs

[skycruiser]

I'm in a little group of beginner musicians working our way toward an eventual performance. We're starting to realize that we need a small mixer/amp/speaker setup to be able to play in small places that have no support at all. I'm thinking "back yard" type of situations. This is mostly for microphones and keyboard but possibly guitar, drums and bass as well.

In my simple minded view of the thing, there are 3 basic parts to consider: Mixer, Power Amplifier and Speakers. I see you can buy these as separate parts, or you can get the power amp integrated in either the mixer or speakers.

Are there any major trade-offs or pros/cons to consider between these options?

1. separate mixer, amp, speakers
2. powered mixer + speakers
3. mixer + powered speakers
4. integrated mixer/amp/speaker

 

[Jason Stock]

I have built many systems over the years and the best advice I can give is to look at making it scalable/expandable over time as you need. Given that remove 2 and 4 from your list right now. You even said it will mostly be for vocals and keyboard but may be....you are already thinking it may need to grow.
Now, with #1 you can probably do a lot cheaper if you are willing to use the used market. Many people (myself included) have moved to #3 so we have a bunch of passive speakers and old heavy power amps sitting around that can be sold on the cheap in the used market. That and many used analog mixers are out there now also for cheap as many of us moved to digital mixers.
For ease of use, #3 is going to be the best but usually costs a bit more. If cost is not an issue, it is much easier to go that route as most of us running PA systems have gone the #3 route.

What are you thinking for a mixer??

 

[JRA]

Are there any major trade-offs or pros/cons to consider between these options?

first thing that comes to mind is expandability vs. convenience. it's nice when your plans and purchases give you both, but sometimes decisions need to be made, and one or the other takes precedence. e.g., i built a PA with convenience in mind (custom-sized cabinets), but i can't really expand it without a bunch of planning and work.

on the face of it, IMO: separating the mixer from the amp (no powered mixers) lends more to future 'expandability', but may not be as convenient at the start. OTOH, powered speakers let you expand ad infinitum and may also be more convenient(?).

 

[skycruiser]

Thanks guys - so far a couple of votes to avoid the integrated mixer/amp. It does sounds like good advice in terms of expansion capability.

@Jason Stock - we don't really have any particular mixers in mind yet. I usually shop at Sweetwater and see the usual suspects - Yamaha, Behringer, Tascam, Presonus etc. I'll really need to dive into the reviews and options. We'll probably need to work toward the lower end of the price range but I don't think we necessarily have to go with the absolute lowest. Maybe something like a mid-range Yamaha, 12-16 channels.

 

[Jason Stock]

Thanks guys - so far a couple of votes to avoid the integrated mixer/amp. It does sounds like good advice in terms of expansion capability.

@Jason Stock - we don't really have any particular mixers in mind yet. I usually shop at Sweetwater and see the usual suspects - Yamaha, Behringer, Tascam, Presonus etc. I'll really need to dive into the reviews and options. We'll probably need to work toward the lower end of the price range but I don't think we necessarily have to go with the absolute lowest. Maybe something like a mid-range Yamaha, 12-16 channels.

Are you thinking digital or analog for the mixer? As far as channels, how big is the band?

 

[SoCal80s]

Expandability and ease of setup is the key. Buy something that will work for you tomorrow, not just today. Best suggestion I can make is to buy 2 powered tops, 12" or 15". Buy a mixer with TWICE the number of inputs you think you need. Don't forget the monitors, one for each musician, 10" or 12". Add a subwoofer to this and you can leave your bass amp at home.

 

[skycruiser]

Are you thinking digital or analog for the mixer? As far as channels, how big is the band?

We haven't really looked into the +/- on digital vs. analog. I have done some reading on it but need to do more research.
Long run probably 2 keyboards, bass, 2 guitars, drums, 2-3 vocals. I thought 12-16 channels would be enough, and my understanding is you can add sub-mixing boards later if you need to expand.

 

[drpepper]

...we don't really have any particular mixers in mind yet

Another vote for mixer + powered speakers generally

And if I were in your position, I would give the strongest consideration to a tablet controlled mixer...many of the functions and features are very simply more robust and easier ... and IMO, that's more easily learned from scratch regardless of familiarity with mixers and more easily operated

I wanted to get a small mixer for acoustic duo/trio gigs and an 8 channel analog mixer seemed to make sense. I went that route without thinking too much about it, and I have been kicking myself ever since. Have used tablet controlled mixers for a while, there are some things that I just don't see as remotely comparable. More than a year later, I still find using it a frustration and I haven't mastered it.

 

[Jason Stock]

We haven't really looked into the +/- on digital vs. analog. I have done some reading on it but need to do more research.
Long run probably 2 keyboards, bass, 2 guitars, drums, 2-3 vocals. I thought 12-16 channels would be enough, and my understanding is you can add sub-mixing boards later if you need to expand.

As others have said. Get more channels than you need today. You are already at 13 if you have a 5 piece drum set if needed to mic everything. A digital mixer is a really good way to go. I went with a Behringer XR18 when I moved from analog to digital. It is cost effective (cheap) and does what I need for both my 3 piece and 4 piece band, and I have used it for a 5 piece band also. In addition, you have lots of monitor sends (8) so each player can have their own monitor mix and if you ever go IEM, you can easily. Again, just my opinion, but if you can swing it, do as SoCal80 said and its expandable well into the future.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Heck, people are giving away analog mixers…some are pretty nice especially if they have the desired 16 channels and onboard FX. Big question: powered speakers vs passive enclosures & separate power amps? I’d spend the extra $$ and go with the former in the interest of future expansion. If on-the-cheap, the latter is fine but DON’T pay top-dollar for old technology.

Riis

 

[Mike Caldwell]

As mentioned the powered mixer and integrated options can work well for their intended use but offer next to no expansion path.

How versed are you in setting up a system and a mixer?

 

[Stewie]

I agree with most of the above, but if your budget is like mine, you could buy a used powered mixer (Yamaha) a pair of speakers and speaker stands for about $400. This is a good place to start, and is resellable when you need to upgrade. Be aware that recent powered mixers come with a lot less XLR jacks than they claim to have channels.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

I agree with most of the above, but if your budget is like mine, you could buy a used powered mixer (Yamaha) a pair of speakers and speaker stands for about $400. This is a good place to start, and is resellable when you need to upgrade. Be aware that recent powered mixers come with a lot less XLR jacks than they claim to have channels.

Actually you need to watch that on many mixers as they will count each input on a stereo pair as a single channel.

 

[bherman]

I'm not a sound guy but have been in bands and around sound systems for a long time. I'd echo what overs have said, and add a bit from my observations. As a start-up band moving into small gigs, your needs are pretty low-key right now.

I'd get a decent unpowered digital mixer with more channels than you need right now. 12 or so channels should hold you for a while - I play in a band that plays mid-sized indoor and outdoor venues, generally its only the kick drum in the mix, vocals (3), 2 guitars, and a bit of bass. At larger venues, there's usually pro sound and even then, we're maybe talking 4 mikes for the drums plus 3 vocals and 3 insstruments.

To start with, you can probably get by with two powered speakers on stands, and no monitors at first. You can add them when you can afford to (or buy now if you have the budget). Don't forget to budget for mikes, stands, and cables.

I will say that its easy to get carried away with pa system overkill. I played for a few years in a very busy 5 pc cover band (two guitars, keyboards, drums, bass) and we played in most venues with two powered speakers and 3 monitors. I also recently played in a 5 pc NewGrass band (all acoustic through pedalboards, no drums) that regularly used 4 powered speakers, a powered sub, and 4 monitors. Way overkill in most settings, adding to setup and breakdown time.

So my advice - start simple with high-quality gear that you can use as your needs expand.

 

[drpepper]

...Be aware that recent powered mixers come with a lot less XLR jacks than they claim to have channels.

Yep, double highlight on that point for the self-declared beginner. If you go by "channel" and "input/output" counts in marketing copy, you may well end up disappointed. Look in more detail at the specs and probably best to review your requirements while looking at pictures of the mixer...number of XLR, actual channels...popular ones are to say things like a mixer with 4 monitor outs has "6 outputs"...including the L and R mains in the count or, as was mentioned above, counting inputs and implying that as a channel count while including 1/4" stereo pairs and RCA jacks for mp3 players in the count.

 

[skycruiser]

As mentioned the powered mixer and integrated options can work well for their intended use but offer next to no expansion path.

How versed are you in setting up a system and a mixer?

We are all pretty much noobs so figuring things out as we go along!

Thanks for all the useful inputs everyone!

 

[DirtDog]

If you plan to put bass and drums into the PA, consider the fact that you'll likely need to supplement a basic PA with a sub. Powered sub with built-in crossover specifically. You may not need this for a small club gig, but once you start playing outside or in bigger indoor spaces, you'll want the sub.

On the occasions that we needed a sub (or two), we rented something compatible.

Another consideration is monitoring. What are your requirements there? Whole band on one mix? Separate mix for each player? or something in between? That'll dictate how many monitor/aux channels you'll need on your board and the number of monitor speakers you'll need. You'll probably want powered monitors to make it simpler. Or, if you're more adventurous, wired or wireless in ears!

The last band where I supplied PA, I used:

Mackie DL 1608 mixer w/ iPad controller
Electrovoice ZLX-15P mains
ART HeadAmp Pro headphone amp


- had more than enough inputs for one or two acoustic guitars, three vocal mics, snare drum mic, tom mics, bass drum mic, bass guitar and electric guitar.
- each player had wired IEMs of their choice (plugged into the ART unit). I could run up to six mono monitor mixes, so each band member had their own mix if they wanted.
- supplemented with Electro-voice EKX 18 subs (often just one, sometimes two for big outdoor gigs)

Here's what that basic system looked like in practice - didn't;t need subs for that gig. The 15" mains did a pretty good job carrying the bass guitar at reasonable volume.

 

[Bullitt5135]

Mixer + powered speakers + graphic EQ for managing monitor feedback.

The Behringer and Soundcraft digital mixers have everything you need for EQ, comp, and FX built in.

Recruit a new band member that knows sound and owns gear.

 

[Engle]

Mixer + powered speakers + graphic EQ for managing monitor feedback.

The Behringer and Soundcraft digital mixers have everything you need for EQ, comp, and FX built in.

Recruit a new band member that knows sound and owns gear.

If you get a digital mixer, you won't need a graphic eq.

 

[gstaats]

We lucked out getting our first PA setup 18 months ago. MOst of the gigs we played had PAs supplied (festivals for the most part) but were looking to expand to be able cover smaller venues if needed. We did go route 1 - used crown XLS power amps and passive speakers with a 2u rack PA. We got stupid lucky and found what I am assuming was a super sale or decimal point in the wrong position and scored a presonus series III 32R rack mixer for $169.90. We're using as an interface for recording right now too.