if playing with three fingers comes naturally to you, you are way ahead of the game! most people have to struggle to use three fingers. It is a definite plus to use three. Do not "nip it in the bud"
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floating thumb techniqe
- Thread starter Torvus
- Start date
I'm actually in exactly the same position. I received my first bass yesterday (a Yamaha BB414) and although I'm having a little trouble muting (which is just a case of practice) playing with my ring finger is just coming naturally. When playing on the E string, should I be muting the higher strings with my pinky and left hand? I'm not entirely sure about how to go about it and being a beginner, I'm trying to be very careful about not developing bad habits early on.
My thumb is left loose, so that it mutes the string above where my fingers are playing, it's made my playing faster, smoother and it really cuts down on any string noise I used to make. I woodshedded it until it came naturally, and it's helped my fingerstyle playing immeasurably.
Hi everyone,
I have an update/complaint/rant/whatever you want to call it.
Earlier people have noted that this technique requires development of arm and shoulder muscles and is actually very tiresome/painful on the arm and shoulder at first.
Others responded that a good solution is to rest your arm on the top of the bass, taking some of the weight off the shoulder.
But for those of use playing near the bridge:
There's really not enough room to rest your arm on the top of the bass. When playing the B string, if I really wanted to rest my forearm on the top of the bass I would have to bend my wrist a whole lot, which is really bad and apparently can lead to real problems.
When I play about at the neck pickups there's a better arm/bass angle so I can do it easier, but I don't want to be restricted to not being able to play near the bridge.
I've been practicing floating thumb every day for the past two months and my shoulder and arm still kill me at the end of my practice session. In fact, the pain is what causes me to stop in the first place. Something tells me I'm either doing something wrong or .... who knows?
Also note that playing near the bridge, for me at least, requires more force to play (Well, this is hard to describe, actually. I'm not actually plucking harder but it is much more tiresome). Thus, in addition to keeping itself suspended, the arm has to "counterbalance" the force of the fingers on the string, which pull the arm downwards.
So anyway I'd like either advice on building more strength so this doesn't hurt the arm/shoulder or .... any advice really! Just tell me how you've coped with it - I'm really frustrated with this because in every other way floating thumb has been magic to me.
PS: I play with the bass fairly high, and at about a 45 degree angle. The height of my plucking hand is about at the end of ribcage/belly-button height.
I have an update/complaint/rant/whatever you want to call it.
Earlier people have noted that this technique requires development of arm and shoulder muscles and is actually very tiresome/painful on the arm and shoulder at first.
Others responded that a good solution is to rest your arm on the top of the bass, taking some of the weight off the shoulder.
But for those of use playing near the bridge:
There's really not enough room to rest your arm on the top of the bass. When playing the B string, if I really wanted to rest my forearm on the top of the bass I would have to bend my wrist a whole lot, which is really bad and apparently can lead to real problems.
When I play about at the neck pickups there's a better arm/bass angle so I can do it easier, but I don't want to be restricted to not being able to play near the bridge.
I've been practicing floating thumb every day for the past two months and my shoulder and arm still kill me at the end of my practice session. In fact, the pain is what causes me to stop in the first place. Something tells me I'm either doing something wrong or .... who knows?
Also note that playing near the bridge, for me at least, requires more force to play (Well, this is hard to describe, actually. I'm not actually plucking harder but it is much more tiresome). Thus, in addition to keeping itself suspended, the arm has to "counterbalance" the force of the fingers on the string, which pull the arm downwards.
So anyway I'd like either advice on building more strength so this doesn't hurt the arm/shoulder or .... any advice really! Just tell me how you've coped with it - I'm really frustrated with this because in every other way floating thumb has been magic to me.
PS: I play with the bass fairly high, and at about a 45 degree angle. The height of my plucking hand is about at the end of ribcage/belly-button height.
Some people get the mistaken idea that the right forearm shouldn't touch the bass at all to be able to, as Todd would say, "move the mechanism". This isn't true. The right forearm can and should be against the bass, thus taking a some weight off of the shoulder, just not laying on top of the bass as if you've got your thumb planted on the pickup and the wrist at an extreme angle. In other words, your for arm can "glide" on the body of the bass just as the thumb glides over the strings. Does that make sense? Watch Todd's video again and I'll think it will become clear. I've got a bad right shoulder from surgery years ago (too many years practicing my slap shot) and I can play for hours without any discomfort.
You've done a great service pointing that out. I couldn't believe one's forearm should not be on the bass so never bothered going with that. It would be pretty tiring to suspend your arm up off the bass like that for too long.
Indeed robwren is right in his post. Resting the forearm is great.
But if you read my post, and watch Todd Johnson's explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPVMBPmrblU
you'll see that, when you're playing the lowest string (look at him playing after the 2:00 mark), there's not really room to rest the fore arm on the bass, your hand is so high already that you'd almost need a 90 degree angle with the wrist to have your arm on the bass. The problem would get worse if he was playing over the bridge pickup.
Really all you can do sort of place your thumb on the bass for a bit of support (or your wrist), but if you use much pressure it really becomes an anchor, in which case you're really using movable achor. I just don't like the idea of anchoring because it makes "moving the mechanism" alot less smooth. And that brings me to dvh's suggestion to use a movable anchor. I think its a good idea if I can't find an alternative, but I really prefer the smoothness of the string changes with floating thumb. And if I use an anchor for just the lowest string, I still lose that smoothness when moving to or from that string.
A perfect example of why I don't like the movable anchor would be octaves on the E(for root) and D(for eigth - ie the octave). Moving back down to hit the E string is just awkward when you've got to re-position your thumb on its anchor, especially if that anchor is the pickup, since you have to move your thumb up over the pickup and then down onto it.
But if you read my post, and watch Todd Johnson's explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPVMBPmrblU
you'll see that, when you're playing the lowest string (look at him playing after the 2:00 mark), there's not really room to rest the fore arm on the bass, your hand is so high already that you'd almost need a 90 degree angle with the wrist to have your arm on the bass. The problem would get worse if he was playing over the bridge pickup.
Really all you can do sort of place your thumb on the bass for a bit of support (or your wrist), but if you use much pressure it really becomes an anchor, in which case you're really using movable achor. I just don't like the idea of anchoring because it makes "moving the mechanism" alot less smooth. And that brings me to dvh's suggestion to use a movable anchor. I think its a good idea if I can't find an alternative, but I really prefer the smoothness of the string changes with floating thumb. And if I use an anchor for just the lowest string, I still lose that smoothness when moving to or from that string.
A perfect example of why I don't like the movable anchor would be octaves on the E(for root) and D(for eigth - ie the octave). Moving back down to hit the E string is just awkward when you've got to re-position your thumb on its anchor, especially if that anchor is the pickup, since you have to move your thumb up over the pickup and then down onto it.
Yes, on your example there I would do the same thing.
I am finding, in fact, that my thumb floats when I play open string E's unless there are a bunch of them (e.g. a string of 1/8 note open E's)
I am finding, in fact, that my thumb floats when I play open string E's unless there are a bunch of them (e.g. a string of 1/8 note open E's)
I will forego my usual disclaimer about Todd being the instructor and I not. This is where I part company with Todd and Gary concerning the "from the arm" positioning advice.
As I developed this technique about the time that Willis was my version is less focused on the large muscle group and more on the use of the thumb as part of a comprehensive muting system and as another playing finger. As such I will give no such advice that you cannot rest your arm while effectively using FT. Now I see merit in Todd and Gary's theory here but in my application it just hasn't been something I had to address.
In fact if you look at even my newest bass you will see definite wear marks already where I have rested on the bass body. I do not find that playing either at or near the bridge is a problem and when I am playing my lowest string (in my case a B) I do not plant but instead prefer to use it in conjuction with my index and middle finger (occasionally working in the ring but I have found no reason to extend the two fingers and a thumb approach to three fingers and a thumb except in rare occasions).
You should do what is comfortable. Work up to new techniques gradually and don't get discouraged by short term progress including some small amount of pain. If there is more than just the aching of newly exercised muscles than you are likely doing something wrong and should seek qualified instruction.
I hear all sorts of reasons not to pursue FT as a technique but it shouldn't include pain as a part. I never experienced any pain in my progress when I first developed my use of FT so I have no personal experience with it.
My rule is to keep every part of my playing equipment (that is the physical part) close to and touching my bass. I use both right and left hand muting (with FT as the primary on the right hand) and do not allow any string (and I have seven) to ring free ever. I am always in contact in some way so to think that I am "moving a mechanism" freely above the strings is not accurate. My 'mechanism" is always in contact and literally slides up and down against the body of the bass (hence my wear marks).
I completely disagree with the assessment that all you can do when playing close to the bridge is to rest and therefore become "moveable anchor". I don't have to rest anywhere and I spend considerable time playing near the bridge as, like most folks who occasionally break the bass speed limit, I spend a lot of time playing there.
Spin
As I developed this technique about the time that Willis was my version is less focused on the large muscle group and more on the use of the thumb as part of a comprehensive muting system and as another playing finger. As such I will give no such advice that you cannot rest your arm while effectively using FT. Now I see merit in Todd and Gary's theory here but in my application it just hasn't been something I had to address.
In fact if you look at even my newest bass you will see definite wear marks already where I have rested on the bass body. I do not find that playing either at or near the bridge is a problem and when I am playing my lowest string (in my case a B) I do not plant but instead prefer to use it in conjuction with my index and middle finger (occasionally working in the ring but I have found no reason to extend the two fingers and a thumb approach to three fingers and a thumb except in rare occasions).
You should do what is comfortable. Work up to new techniques gradually and don't get discouraged by short term progress including some small amount of pain. If there is more than just the aching of newly exercised muscles than you are likely doing something wrong and should seek qualified instruction.
I hear all sorts of reasons not to pursue FT as a technique but it shouldn't include pain as a part. I never experienced any pain in my progress when I first developed my use of FT so I have no personal experience with it.
My rule is to keep every part of my playing equipment (that is the physical part) close to and touching my bass. I use both right and left hand muting (with FT as the primary on the right hand) and do not allow any string (and I have seven) to ring free ever. I am always in contact in some way so to think that I am "moving a mechanism" freely above the strings is not accurate. My 'mechanism" is always in contact and literally slides up and down against the body of the bass (hence my wear marks).
I completely disagree with the assessment that all you can do when playing close to the bridge is to rest and therefore become "moveable anchor". I don't have to rest anywhere and I spend considerable time playing near the bridge as, like most folks who occasionally break the bass speed limit, I spend a lot of time playing there.
Spin
I started playing as a teenager in the 60's and just started back after a mere 35 yr layoff. I use the middle and ring interchangeably, to pair with the index and plan to continue. I was noticing lots of need for muting with the new strings etc, especially after getting a 5 string. I started trying the FT by experimentation, then stumbled on this thread. Thanks! It really cleans up my sound. I guess the old flatwounds did not ring as much.
Spindizzy,
Firstly, I want to thank you for putting so much time into helping me and many others with this post and these kinds of posts.
I think I've come to realize what may have been causing shoulder and arm pain. It wasn't so much the not resting the arm on the bass part (though I'll make sure to do this when I can, since after all it is comfortable). I think it had more to do with the height and angle of my bass.
I wear my bass quite high, and in order to get a fairly straight wrist angle on the plucking hand, you need to keep your arm fairly high up. If you think about it, whether or not you're playing bass, keeping your arm suspended like that for any considerable amount of time is bound to give you pains. The arms aren't meant to be held up for long periods of time.
Moving the bass down (and angling it up a bit more) has helped much. I'd still say my bass is high (bit higher than Todd Johnson in that video), but not as much now. With more of an angle playing sitting is alot easier too! I always had some troubles with this, even though the bass doesn't change spots when I sit. The greater angle (probably 45 degrees-ish ... it was about 35-40 before), also helps keep my plucking arm lower. Anyone have any tips to stop the bass from diving a bit? I just got a new (good) strap but it still doesn't want to stay put at 45 degrees.
Anyway, the new height and angle feels strange at first, but that's because I've been playing at the higher height for years. Well see how this goes.
Firstly, I want to thank you for putting so much time into helping me and many others with this post and these kinds of posts.
I think I've come to realize what may have been causing shoulder and arm pain. It wasn't so much the not resting the arm on the bass part (though I'll make sure to do this when I can, since after all it is comfortable). I think it had more to do with the height and angle of my bass.
I wear my bass quite high, and in order to get a fairly straight wrist angle on the plucking hand, you need to keep your arm fairly high up. If you think about it, whether or not you're playing bass, keeping your arm suspended like that for any considerable amount of time is bound to give you pains. The arms aren't meant to be held up for long periods of time.
Moving the bass down (and angling it up a bit more) has helped much. I'd still say my bass is high (bit higher than Todd Johnson in that video), but not as much now. With more of an angle playing sitting is alot easier too! I always had some troubles with this, even though the bass doesn't change spots when I sit. The greater angle (probably 45 degrees-ish ... it was about 35-40 before), also helps keep my plucking arm lower. Anyone have any tips to stop the bass from diving a bit? I just got a new (good) strap but it still doesn't want to stay put at 45 degrees.
Anyway, the new height and angle feels strange at first, but that's because I've been playing at the higher height for years. Well see how this goes.
I am self-taught on bass guitar, and this technique is what I've always done. I didn't know it was an "exotic" or desirable way to play - I always thought I was doing it wrong! 
It makes it difficult to play very very quick runs, but other then that it provides a lot of control as well as a way to keep your hand steady. The problems I encounter are that when I hit the anchor string with my thumb, it sometimes makes a slight noise. I am sure I could control it with some focused practice, but in the groups I play with no one can really tell anyway lol
It makes it difficult to play very very quick runs, but other then that it provides a lot of control as well as a way to keep your hand steady. The problems I encounter are that when I hit the anchor string with my thumb, it sometimes makes a slight noise. I am sure I could control it with some focused practice, but in the groups I play with no one can really tell anyway lol
I use FT and find it works really well... keeping the lower open strings nice and mute with the right hand, and the higher string mute with the left hand.
The trouble for me is when playing slap.... the thumb is kinda busy ;-) how do you mute the lower open strings when striking the string with your thumb...? If I'm playing the A string, how can I keep the E string from ringing?
Any ideas welcome!
cheers,
UV
The trouble for me is when playing slap.... the thumb is kinda busy ;-) how do you mute the lower open strings when striking the string with your thumb...? If I'm playing the A string, how can I keep the E string from ringing?
Any ideas welcome!
cheers,
UV
Ultraviolet you raise an important question. As I am like you someone who uses multiple techniques in addition to FT (I use FT for fingerstyle but play with my thumb more traditionally sometimes). This is why I say a stay close to the strings with both hands all the time. When slapping I will also use a couple hairbands (don't use scrunchies like some folks do) to help quiet strings but also keep my left hand touching at all times as well as using palm muting more in these situations.
If you tend to hit and bounce when you are slapping then left hand muting is king and you will need to practice precise single finger and a kind of barring the strings technique to also help keep string under control. With a hair band or scrunchie you can dampen them a bit more when open strings are prone to vibrating.
I also sometimes will use a sort of hybrid FT approach by using the thumb to mute after a thumb slap while I am popping or pulling off of strings. Not always possible and much easier if you are using the string through attack ala Mr. Wooten rather than the more bouncy attack of say a Mark King. For the King method I would use a lot of left hand muting.
Diffierent styles take different approaches and no one is saying, or at least I never say, that FT is the only one just a great tool for many many situations.
Spin
If you tend to hit and bounce when you are slapping then left hand muting is king and you will need to practice precise single finger and a kind of barring the strings technique to also help keep string under control. With a hair band or scrunchie you can dampen them a bit more when open strings are prone to vibrating.
I also sometimes will use a sort of hybrid FT approach by using the thumb to mute after a thumb slap while I am popping or pulling off of strings. Not always possible and much easier if you are using the string through attack ala Mr. Wooten rather than the more bouncy attack of say a Mark King. For the King method I would use a lot of left hand muting.
Diffierent styles take different approaches and no one is saying, or at least I never say, that FT is the only one just a great tool for many many situations.
Spin
That's basically the way I play most of the time. Never really paid that much attention to it while I'm on the E as sometimes I used my thumb for the attack, sometimes I alternate my thumb and index finger, sometimes I alternate my thumb, index, and middle fingers, and sometimes I just use my index and middle fingers on the E.
In the first 3 cases there's an anchor provided on the E by whatever is striking it (however momentary) and in the last case it's a floating thumb deal which I actually rarely use but find gets the job done more effectively.
Never looked at his playing but my guess he probably did something along the lines of the same thing in terms of it not being an issue in muting the string - obviously, he had to remove his thumb to sound the string.
I also lightly rest my arm on the bass when I'm playing around the bridge (most of the time) so there's some stability there.
Thanks Spin
I use the barring type approach when slapping the A string.... fretting the A whilst simultaneously pressing the tip of the fretting finger against the side of the E string to mute it. The problem is when you're slapping the D or G
... this is exacerbated by the extra force needed to slap the lighter string (to get the same output), tending to vibrate the guitar - making the E (or A) strings ring fairly markedly.I recall Mark King using the thumb of his LEFT hand to mute the E... kind of wrapping it over the top of the neck. But this is way beyond my modest abilitities!
Trying to mute with the palm of the right hand once the upper string has been slapped is also something I've looked into... but requires huge amounts of control otherwise you end up striking the open string with the palm and making the problem even worse! Not easy on 16th notes....
How does the scrunchie / hairband thing work?
Cheers,
UV
After paying more attention I realize that I probably use my index and middle fingers on the E as often as I use the thumb as a lot of the time I use the thumb to deaden the E after striking it with my fingers so it seems like I'm using my thumb to sound the string a lot more often than what I actually am.
One thing I can say for a fact, there's probably nothing that will screw your playing up like paying attention to what you're doing instead of listening to what you're doing.
Above edit to this previous post:
That's basically the way I play most of the time. Never really paid that much attention to it while I'm on the E as sometimes I used my thumb for the attack, sometimes I alternate my thumb and index finger, sometimes I alternate my thumb, index, and middle fingers, and sometimes I just use my index and middle fingers on the E.
In the first 3 cases there's an anchor provided on the E by whatever is striking it (however momentary) and in the last case it's a floating thumb deal which I actually rarely use but find gets the job done more effectively.
Never looked at his playing but my guess he probably did something along the lines of the same thing in terms of it not being an issue in muting the string - obviously, he had to remove his thumb to sound the string.
I also lightly rest my arm on the bass when I'm playing around the bridge (most of the time) so there's some stability there.
One thing I can say for a fact, there's probably nothing that will screw your playing up like paying attention to what you're doing instead of listening to what you're doing.
Above edit to this previous post:
That's basically the way I play most of the time. Never really paid that much attention to it while I'm on the E as sometimes I used my thumb for the attack, sometimes I alternate my thumb and index finger, sometimes I alternate my thumb, index, and middle fingers, and sometimes I just use my index and middle fingers on the E.
In the first 3 cases there's an anchor provided on the E by whatever is striking it (however momentary) and in the last case it's a floating thumb deal which I actually rarely use but find gets the job done more effectively.
Never looked at his playing but my guess he probably did something along the lines of the same thing in terms of it not being an issue in muting the string - obviously, he had to remove his thumb to sound the string.
I also lightly rest my arm on the bass when I'm playing around the bridge (most of the time) so there's some stability there.
Ultraviolet,
I forgot to throw in the right forearm in my list of muting body parts (sounds like the title of a sleezy show on FX) as I also use that when slaping higher strings. As I said before I am "hugging" the bass and strings at all times so every part of my available body is used to mute.
The scruntchy hairband thing is something that I have seen Wooten and a few others do so I tried it several years back and have kept one handy ever since. I think a lot of folks use scruntchies but the idea is to wrap one around the nut of your bass perhaps with a little spilling out on the strings low on the neck. I use two regular hairbands that wrap just behind and right over my zero fret. In my case I am just going for a little help in silencing the string but I have seen folks move thier bands up higher on the neck (sometimes looking like a capo) as it will aid in keeping open string quiet and I think some use it in some way for two handed tapping. Not much of a tapper myself so I assume it helps to keep the string closer to the fret so when they hit with the tap it sounds more even on the neck (a tap style player would really be best to comment on this type of use).
Spin
I forgot to throw in the right forearm in my list of muting body parts (sounds like the title of a sleezy show on FX) as I also use that when slaping higher strings. As I said before I am "hugging" the bass and strings at all times so every part of my available body is used to mute.
The scruntchy hairband thing is something that I have seen Wooten and a few others do so I tried it several years back and have kept one handy ever since. I think a lot of folks use scruntchies but the idea is to wrap one around the nut of your bass perhaps with a little spilling out on the strings low on the neck. I use two regular hairbands that wrap just behind and right over my zero fret. In my case I am just going for a little help in silencing the string but I have seen folks move thier bands up higher on the neck (sometimes looking like a capo) as it will aid in keeping open string quiet and I think some use it in some way for two handed tapping. Not much of a tapper myself so I assume it helps to keep the string closer to the fret so when they hit with the tap it sounds more even on the neck (a tap style player would really be best to comment on this type of use).
Spin
I got off the Carol Kaye site about "muting" at the bridge with felt or foam depending on finger or flatpick. Hers is not really to mute in the usual sense in that the string sounded should be practically identical to no mute but's it's to create a more focused tone. So it's uselss for deadening the string in any sense. It does create a more focused controlled tone but it's a pretty subtle difference in playing. May be a lot more apparent recorded. Don't know.
At any rate, it sounds like the scrunchy just barely touching the strings at the nut may be doing the same kind of thing.
At any rate, it sounds like the scrunchy just barely touching the strings at the nut may be doing the same kind of thing.
