Fodera Club Part IV

[Just Thumpin']

I couldn't agree more! But why would you make the jump to a Fodera and order such an expensive custom instrument if you...

1. Never tried one;
2. Were not certain of what specs you wanted;
3. Were not comfortable in your own playing / likes / dislikes;

and/or

4. Didn't care about #1-3 above because something inside of you wanted this instrument and you had the means / temperament to walk away if what you ended up with didn't do it for you?

My first Fodera I bought on a wing and a prayer...I did way too little research, but a lot of players that I respected highly were playing them, I loved what I was hearing and I knew enough about what I liked and how I wanted my bass to feel and sound like (and had played one of my friends' Monarchs and could not get the feeling of that neck out of my mind) that I threw caution to the wind.

I took the plunge and bought a Monarch that was already built and available in-stock at a Fodera Dealer. It DID have the woods that I was looking for, however, I knew I was taking a risk and if it didn't work out, I was willing to walk away. And, actually, things didn't work out initially...the nut height was too high for me and I hated the way the bass sounded! Come to think of it, I could have just stopped there and been done with Fodera.

However, I made an appointment, went to the shop and had the nut height lowered, got a complete set-up AND had the pups changed and voila...KILLER bass!! Heck, I loved that bass so much that I ended up eventually becoming a partner here. If things hadn't worked out, it would have been more of a reflection on me and my own impulsiveness than Fodera...IMHO, of course.

my basic feeling is that if you go from a fender to a fodera, there's gonna be some ramp-up time as they're very different animals.

 

[Just Thumpin']

I totally get it, and that is completely cool. But the point about Fodera is that nothing is "standard" per se. We don't charge extra for different string spacing. We don't charge extra for different scale lengths. We don't charge extra for most different wood combinations (unless a customer wants something really rare / exotic). Yes, a different fingerboard radius than our usual one carries an upcharge, but in the grand scheme of things, those dollars are probably not a "deal breaker" for most people...

All of the issues that you and your friend had with your Foderas were very much "on the table" from a custom-build standpoint and could have very easily been prevented. That is the point that I am trying to make. Also, since the basses that weren't working were our usual specs, it is a shame that you didn't have a chance to play one before committing to your custom build...I feel badly that we did not have an opportunity to make things work for you!

Of course, if the basses purchased were either used or "stock" Foderas, you never had the chance to make these decisions which would be sad since the pricing would have been the same had we addressed all of the things that you wanted to be different.

Regards,

J

there was nothing really wrong with the build process. i just ordered whatever was your standard 5 string emperor was and added a top. id say im probably in the minority in what i think feels comfortable. there are instruments that hang where 1st position feels far away. ken smiths,alembics,warwicks etc that i cant jive with from playability standpoint. the fodera fell into that camp.

i said it earlier in the thread that i originally only bought one because i thought they looked awesome and are supposed to be the pinnacle of bass building. in the end, none of that really mattered. the vision of what your guys' standard 5 string is doesnt work for me.

 

[Angus]

the guys on the internet ive seen ordering foderas are usually only making cosmetic decisions like top wood but not ordering anything too out there. i think angus has been the first poster ive seen here specifically order something pretty different by going with the 16.5mm spacing.

Actually, even further than that, mine will be the narrow spacing (I think I'm going to switch it down a tad to 16mm even because I love narrow); narrower nut, as I find the standard nut to be WAY too wide; and a slightly asymmetrical, medium thickness neck as the standard profile is tooooo thin. I also had to have a very specific ramp setup for it, and I'm using Lane Poors as I don't like the sound of Seymour Duncans and I haven't found a set of Aero I really connect with.

All that comes from years of playing tons of Foderas, ordering a bunch of custom instruments, playing a ton of gigs, and finding out what works for me. It also helped owning a MG5 for a while. I love the way it sounded acoustically, but didn't dig the SDs and could not have hated the wide spacing more if I made myself.

I've wasted a bunch of money wanting a Fodera but ordering cheaper instruments, and in the end it was good because it helped me understand exactly what aspects of Foderas I like and what I don't, and to know the exact specifications of instrument I need. I love the way the narrow spacing ones play (I've played a few in Japan), I love the way the Lane Poor equipped Foderas sound, etc, but I hate most of the normal setup because it's the antithesis of what I need. Obviously there are cosmetic decisions involved, too, because if you are going to pay that much you might as well make it look nice, but first and foremost the decisions for the things I needed changed were so they played exactly how I needed.

If I'd ordered a Fodera 3-4 years ago, I'd probably be unhappy with the result now. But my needs have become pretty solidified, refined and stabilized over the last few years.

So I completely hear you on the standard ones feeling nigh on unplayable. For me, they are, but not because they're bad instruments or anything- I just don't play like that. Some people do.

Now if I could convince them to use a katalox fretboard, everything would REALLY be cool (it sounds so much better than ebony!!).

 

[narud]

I couldn't agree more! But why would you make the jump to a Fodera and order such an expensive custom instrument if you...

1. Never tried one;
2. Were not certain of what specs you wanted;
3. Were not comfortable in your own playing / likes / dislikes;

and/or

4. Didn't care about #1-3 above because something inside of you wanted this instrument and you had the means / temperament to walk away if what you ended up with didn't do it for you?

My first Fodera I bought on a wing and a prayer...I did way too little research, but a lot of players that I respected highly were playing them, I loved what I was hearing and I knew enough about what I liked and how I wanted my bass to feel and sound like (and had played one of my friends' Monarchs and could not get the feeling of that neck out of my mind) that I threw caution to the wind.

I took the plunge and bought a Monarch that was already built and available in-stock at a Fodera Dealer. It DID have the woods that I was looking for, however, I knew I was taking a risk and if it didn't work out, I was willing to walk away. And, actually, things didn't work out initially...the nut height was too high for me and I hated the way the bass sounded! Come to think of it, I could have just stopped there and been done with Fodera.

However, I made an appointment, went to the shop and had the nut height lowered, got a complete set-up AND had the pups changed and voila...KILLER bass!! Heck, I loved that bass so much that I ended up eventually becoming a partner here. If things hadn't worked out, it would have been more of a reflection on me and my own impulsiveness than Fodera...IMHO, of course.

why does anyone order anything without playing it? reputation. people order sadowsky 5 strings on reputation and you play what their vision of what a 5 string neck should feel like. i was more than happy with i ordered wood/electronics wise.

most of the pain wouldnt crop unless i was playing it for extended periods of time. i only ever used it if i was playing fusion (those gigs arent that plentiful ) so i didnt really notice it at first. as i spent more time shedding on that bass and trying to learn new stuff i realized my hands were killing me. had i used that bass for the 4 hour cover band gigs i do, i would have probably realized much earlier that that wasnt going to be the bass for me.

at this point in my life i want a bass i can play anywhere in any situation. the fodera felt like an extremely specialized instrument. and one that was uncomfortable to boot! coming to this realization is what made me cancel a stambaugh i had on order which would have been just another extremely specialized bass. thats not foderas fault. however, i do think that theres a standard feel in the 5 string necks that can be an issue if you have smaller hands or are someone of a smaller frame.

 

[narud]

I totally get it, and that is completely cool. But the point about Fodera is that nothing is "standard" per se. We don't charge extra for different string spacing. We don't charge extra for different scale lengths. We don't charge extra for most different wood combinations (unless a customer wants something really rare / exotic). Yes, a different fingerboard radius than our usual one carries an upcharge, but in the grand scheme of things, those dollars are probably not a "deal breaker" for most people...

All of the issues that you and your friend had with your Foderas were very much "on the table" from a custom-build standpoint and could have very easily been prevented. That is the point that I am trying to make. Also, since the basses that weren't working were our usual specs, it is a shame that you didn't have a chance to play one before committing to your custom build...I feel badly that we did not have an opportunity to make things work for you!

Of course, if the basses purchased were either used or "stock" Foderas, you never had the chance to make these decisions which would be sad since the pricing would have been the same had we addressed all of the things that you wanted to be different.

Regards,

J

theres a standard that you use though if someone doesnt specify something different. thats what the generalized idea is going to be of a fodera. someone goes and plays one in a shop and thats what theyre going to feel. id say the reality is that the majority of guys dont have that refined of needs to be ordering super custom spacing/radius etc and when they do, can end up with some bizarre instruments.

 

[narud]

Actually, even further than that, mine will be the narrow spacing (I think I'm going to switch it down a tad to 16mm even because I love narrow); narrower nut, as I find the standard nut to be WAY too wide; and a slightly asymmetrical, medium thickness neck as the standard profile is tooooo thin. I also had to have a very specific ramp setup for it, and I'm using Lane Poors as I don't like the sound of Seymour Duncans and I haven't found a set of Aero I really connect with.

All that comes from years of playing tons of Foderas, ordering a bunch of custom instruments, playing a ton of gigs, and finding out what works for me. It also helped owning a MG5 for a while. I love the way it sounded acoustically, but didn't dig the SDs and could not have hated the wide spacing more if I made myself.

I've wasted a bunch of money wanting a Fodera but ordering cheaper instruments, and in the end it was good because it helped me understand exactly what aspects of Foderas I like and what I don't, and to know the exact specifications of instrument I need. I love the way the narrow spacing ones play (I've played a few in Japan), I love the way the Lane Poor equipped Foderas sound, etc, but I hate most of the normal setup because it's the antithesis of what I need. Obviously there are cosmetic decisions involved, too, because if you are going to pay that much you might as well make it look nice, but first and foremost the decisions for the things I needed changed were so they played exactly how I needed.

If I'd ordered a Fodera 3-4 years ago, I'd probably be unhappy with the result now. But my needs have become pretty solidified, refined and stabilized over the last few years.

So I completely hear you on the standard ones feeling nigh on unplayable. For me, they are, but not because they're bad instruments or anything- I just don't play like that. Some people do.

Now if I could convince them to use a katalox fretboard, everything would REALLY be cool (it sounds so much better than ebony!!).

with all of that, what about a fodera is making you want to order all those super particular specs from them? you listed a lot of stuff that you dont like from the standard offerings, but in playing them, what did you like?

 

[78Jazzlover]

theres a standard that you use though if someone doesnt specify something different. thats what the generalized idea is going to be of a fodera. someone goes and plays one in a shop and thats what theyre going to feel. id say the reality is that the majority of guys dont have that refined of needs to be ordering super custom spacing/radius etc and when they do, can end up with some bizarre instruments.

I'm really not getting the nugget of wisdom you are trying to get across here, whats the issue? You have every opportunity to order a Fodera - built bass with your specs that stem from the depth of knowledge that you have about your own needs. So....order one, or not. Fodera does not really force endorse a "standard" formula like you seem to want to argue. If any builder is a true custom builder its this one. The ones they make that dont have the stamp of full custom specs from one customer are not Flagship Foderas that Fodera needs you to buy in order to able sell any product. They CLEARLY are a company that is more about custom specs interms of their buisness model, availabilty, attitude and reputation.

I agree with you Jason, there is not one Fodera spec or vision like with 99% of other boutique builders, there are platforms. If you dont like their platforms or pricing then dont order one, and its lame IMO to argue that "Foderas dont agree with my hands" based on spacing and neck width specs. Its not Fodera's fault you ended up with spacing you dont like, and its not their fault you are not ordering a new one to remedy the situation either.

 

[narud]

Fodera does not really force endorse a "standard" formula like you seem to want to argue.

but if only 25 percent of foderas ordered have custom neck dimensions, the majority of the basses that people are playing have a similar feel. a standard. when bass central orders a bunch of in stock basses or a customer doesnt specify a neck shape are they just making something with random specs? no, theres a standard neck shape.

 

[narud]

its lame IMO to argue that "Foderas dont agree with my hands" based on spacing and neck width specs. Its not Fodera's fault you ended up with spacing you dont like, and its not their fault you are not ordering a new one to remedy the situation either.

apparently you missed this part of my post
"the fodera felt like an extremely specialized instrument. and one that was uncomfortable to boot! coming to this realization is what made me cancel a stambaugh i had on order which would have been just another extremely specialized bass. thats not foderas fault."

 

[78Jazzlover]

but if only 25 percent of foderas ordered have custom neck dimensions, the majority of the basses that people are playing have a similar feel. a standard. when bass central orders a bunch of in stock basses or a customer doesnt specify a neck shape are they just making something with random specs? no, theres a standard neck shape.

Percentages int terms of specs from a company that is a CUSTOM builder as a buisness model from platform to finished product is not endorsing a standard vision like with FBass, Coppolo, Nord, Sadowsky etc. You are locked into a mentality and cannot see the differences in conceptualization..and it does make a difference.

Fodera is asking you to make the neck spec, in absence of the customer's knowledge and/or dealer's specific requests they will default to their platform which yes, has to be "something". The other builders above and others tell you that this is what they LIKE and endorse for the general working bassist as a standard and compromise to appeal to most purchasers and their own taste and say "we'll change it if you really need to".

Fodera is a differenct model conceptually that you are trying to debate from another context. There is no Fodera "standard", there are Fodera platforms waiting to be altered. If you dont want to use their platforms and /or dont want to use their custom buisness advice or expertise, then buy your specs elsehwere ...*please*.

 

[narud]

Percentages int terms of specs from a company that is a CUSTOM builder as a buisness model from platform to finished product is not endorsing a standard vision like with FBass, Coppolo, Nord, Sadowsky etc. You are locked into a mentality and cannot see the differences in conceptualization..and it does make a difference.

Fodera is asking you to make the neck spec, in absence of the customer's knowledge and/or dealer's specific requests they will default to their platform which yes, has to be "something". The other builders above and others tell you that this is what they LIKE and endorse for the general working bassist as a standard and compromise to appeal to most purchasers and their own taste and say "we'll change it if you really need to".

Fodera is a differenct model conceptually that you are trying to debate from another context. There is no Fodera "standard", there are Fodera platforms waiting to be altered. If you dont want to use their platforms and /or dont want to use their custom buisness advice or expertise, then buy your specs elsehwere ...*please*.

whether you want to refer to it as a platform or a standard is semantics. the availability of foderas out there have a certain platform which they think is a good one. to anyone here whos ordered a fodera, were you ever asked what type of neck you like? are they itching to make every single bass truly custom in regards to feel and people just arent asking for it?

 

[Just Thumpin']

Not to throw a monkey wrench into things, but since every bass is made 100% by hand and, given the way we build them, it makes ZERO difference to us whether you want your nut width 1.5", 1.55", 1.45" or 1.7". Same thing with neck profile...thick, thin, D-shaped, V-shaped, C-shaped...it makes zero difference. Every one is hand carved. We very often have customers bring us their favorite bass with their favorite neck and we take those measurements and carve their neck exactly to what they love...

This stuff is only a bother if you are using a CNC machine with standardized profiles to carve your necks...which we don't do. Heck, even if we ever did go over to using a machine to rough out the neck, we would never want to get away from the finished shaping being done by a person...that is the soul of what we are. It is one of the things that (we hope) sets us apart...

whether you want to refer to it as a platform or a standard is semantics. the availability of foderas out there have a certain platform which they think is a good one. to anyone here whos ordered a fodera, were you ever asked what type of neck you like? are they itching to make every single bass truly custom in regards to feel and people just arent asking for it?

 

[NickyBass]

I'm really not getting the nugget of wisdom you are trying to get across here, whats the issue? You have every opportunity to order a Fodera - built bass with your specs that stem from the depth of knowledge that you have about your own needs. So....order one, or not. Fodera does not really force endorse a "standard" formula like you seem to want to argue. If any builder is a true custom builder its this one. The ones they make that dont have the stamp of full custom specs from one customer are not Flagship Foderas that Fodera needs you to buy in order to able sell any product. They CLEARLY are a company that is more about custom specs interms of their buisness model, availabilty, attitude and reputation.

I agree with you Jason, there is not one Fodera spec or vision like with 99% of other boutique builders, there are platforms. If you dont like their platforms or pricing then dont order one, and its lame IMO to argue that "Foderas dont agree with my hands" based on spacing and neck width specs. Its not Fodera's fault you ended up with spacing you dont like, and its not their fault you are not ordering a new one to remedy the situation either.

I didn't get the feeling that Narud was arguing anything. He was just answering questions. I get where he's going with it.

btw, '99% of other boutique builders' is a steep estimate. There are alot of guys out there who build with a similiar philosophy as Fodera. There are also alot of 'custom' builders who aren't very 'custom,' but alot of newer builders are accomadating.

 

[78Jazzlover]

whether you want to refer to it as a platform or a standard is semantics. the availability of foderas out there have a certain platform which they think is a good one. to anyone here whos ordered a fodera, were you ever asked what type of neck you like? are they itching to make every single bass truly custom in regards to feel and people just arent asking for it?

Problem is , that you have a need to corner Fodera into an endorsed standard position so that you can argue from a "Foderas dont agree with my hands" mentality.

You basically help make my point...Fodera *is* itching to make every single bass truly custom for that customer's needs and would prefer you know your spec.

Thats right, bingo.

They want to customize your order. If a neck is not customized its not because they are endorsing a standard. People need to know that they have the freedom and are ecouraged to use their philosophy and building model.
Yes, the semantics do make a difference when you characterize on Talkbass a "Fodera neck spec". Fodera offers opportunity as much or more than they standardize their own personal tastes. People should know that they can have THEIR neck built by Fodera , not buy the Fodera neck spec.

If you cant grasp this conceptually then nothing else I can do, I just thought it was important for people who have an open mind and are thinking of what Fodera is about for an order or just for interest get another point of view.

 

[narud]

Problem is , that you have a need to corner Fodera into an endorsed standard position so that you can argue from a "Foderas dont agree with my hands" mentality.

You basically help make my point...Fodera *is* itching to make every single bass truly custom for that customer's needs and would prefer you know your spec.

Thats right, bingo.

They want to customize your order. If a neck is not customized its not because they are endorsing a standard. People need to know that they have the freedom and are ecouraged to use their philosophy and building model.
Yes, the semantics do make a difference when you characterize on Talkbass a "Fodera neck spec". Fodera offers opportunity as much or more than they standardize their own personal tastes. People should know that they can have THEIR neck built by Fodera , not buy the Fodera neck spec.

If you cant grasp this conceptually then nothing else I can do, I just thought it was important for people who have an open mind and are thinking of what Fodera is about for an order or just for interest get another point of view.

if the majority of foderas out there have a similar neck spec, than theres a fodera neck neck spec. theyre endorsing a spec by choosing a specific "platform" when the customer doesnt specify otherwise.

 

[78Jazzlover]

if the majority of foderas out there have a similar neck spec, than theres a fodera neck neck spec. theyre endorsing a spec by choosing a specific "platform" when the customer doesnt specify otherwise.

Well all is good then, you wont be ordering another Fodera because they have their own Fodera neck spec..one that does not meet your needs.

So in your world, everything is settled ..no issue.~

Next!

 

[78Jazzlover]

I didn't get the feeling that Narud was arguing anything. He was just answering questions. I get where he's going with it.

btw, '99% of other boutique builders' is a steep estimate. There are alot of guys out there who build with a similiar philosophy as Fodera. There are also alot of 'custom' builders who aren't very 'custom,' but alot of newer builders are accomadating.

Yes, 99% was steep, sorry

 

[Angus]

Well all is good then, you wont be ordering another Fodera because they have their own Fodera neck spec..one that does not meet your needs.

So in your world, everything is settled ..no issue.~

Next!

Your response has nothing to do with what he's saying.

 

[78Jazzlover]

Your response has nothing to do with what he's saying.

I dont think there is an endorsed Fodera standard in the same way as many other builders, I've already given my reasons. I've explained my position above.

 

[jonno1707]

Vinny absolutely has a standard neck shape he uses and feels 100% comfortable with when and alternate is not requested...