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Double Bass French/German "hybrid" bow pics?

Does anyone have a source of photos of any of the French/German "hybrid" bows, as played by Paul Ellison and David Moore? I believe they are made by Jean Grunberger and Boris Fritsch, respectively. I'm just curious what they look like, particularly in the frog area.
 
I can't provide sources or photos, only personal testimony re: Ellison.

The first time I saw him play, he was freely switching bow grips on what looked to be a German bow. The second time I saw him play, he was freely switching bow grips on what looked to be a French bow.

The thing with his using the French bow with a German hold, his pinky and 3rd finger were just hanging out. He wasn't curling his hand up tightly in a ball around a French frog like what one might imagine. To me that made sense.

I suspect that were he not so open-minded about the issue, he'd be just fine executing the bow strokes exclusively overhanded or underhanded using just about any sort of stick with hair stretched across it. But that's just a suspicion of mine...
 
Prochownik made a "Alsatian" bow (part French, part German) that I'd seen several years ago and recently purchased.

Louis
 

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Thanks for that picture, LouisF.

If, as I understand it, you now own that bow, would you mind telling me what the measurement is from the underside of the stick to the underside of the metal ferrule, right at the front edge of the frog?

On a typical French bow, that measurement would be about 28 mm; on a typical German bow, it would be about 44 mm, so I'm guessing your bow is somewhere in between.

Thanks in advance.
 
I bought the bow from Chris Brown at ISB, who is shipping it to me later this week. I had originally seen the bow in Colorado, probably more than a decade ago. Ken Smith had a similar bow for sale. As soo as the bow arrives I'll post dimensions etc.

Best

Louis

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Paul Ellison does have a Grunberger which was designed to work with both holds, but it is essentially a German bow. Both Paul and David Moore have two sticks each, made by Boris Fritsch which are true hybrid bows. One part of the pair is intended for soloistic playing, the other for orchestral. The orchestral sticks have a more focused sound with very little overtone and stick into the string pretty solidly. The solo bows have a much wider range of overtone and bounce more easily.

I've tried all five of the bows described above. Paul's Grunberger is just about the nicest German bow I've ever tried, but I have a hard time using it overhand. All four of the Boris bows are amazing, but seem to be slightly easier to use as German bows. Both Paul and David are native German players, so it's possible Boris favored that bow hold when designing the sticks.

I'm afraid you'll have to ask them for pictures. Boris says he'll publish a website some day with pictures, but we shall see if that ever happens.
 
I'm afraid my reasons for my interest in the bow were much more mundane: I work mostlty as a writer and a combination of arthritis and carpal tunnel, sometimes causes my right hand to swell or get stiff. When the wrist gets sore in an underhanded grip, being able to "flip over" for a bit, is simply a matter of relief. When the thumb get sore (I've always had this issue with French bows), then it's time to flip back.

For me the bow is more of a "medicinal" compromise than an aesthetic one.

LF
 
On the Prochownik, frog "height" is 36mm. weight 132.5 grams, length27 1/2 inches. I would describe it as a modified French, even though, for me the frog is more comfortable under hand than in a French grip.

It's a very strong, rich sounding bow.

Louis
 

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I saw this on ebay and bought (for $470). It seems to be a copy of my old Pochownik "Alsatian" bow. I've had it a couple of days and it is really not bad. Doesn't have the stiffness and bite of Z's bows, but not bad ad all ( for a quarter of the price)

How does a bow like this actually feel? How does it compare to normal German bow, or a normal French bow? Does it feel like a compromise, or is it something totally unique?
Is the stick and the head also something in between, or does it have typical french or german qualities to it?
 
How does it feel depends on the maker. The Prochownik bow felt a lttle more agile than the Chinese knock off does. The frog on both bows was very comfortable, but I use an "open handed" grip (i.e. I don't "pinch" the frog; some one who does that might find the frog too small). My reasons are completely medicinal: sometimes my wrist just gets "locked" playing underhand, and I like the option of switching overhand. There some really first rate players using this style of bow (like Paul Ellison) but I'm sure that's because of the finesse of their technique.

The stick itself is more French than German, and as a result actually gets a little more volume out of the bass when held French style
Louis
 
Resurrecting this thread because I recently found the close-up pics from a The Strad magazine.

Unfortunately it is a terrible photocopy.
IMG_20170625_201244.jpg


That's one of Fritsch's bows for David Allen Moore.

BO_Artist_David-Allen-Moore_EA4607072533_qkbe4mmcxdlb_PROXY.jpg



The next three are also Fritsch's, I think -
Scott Dixon and Nicholas Walker screenshots.
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There's also the new Carbow Up-Down.

The Ryan also has pics of his Walke hybrid bow in a thread somewhere
 
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Resurrecting this thread because I recently found the close-up pics from an a The Strad magazine.

Unfortunately it is a terrible photocopy.
View attachment 1162473

That's one of Fritsch's bows for David Allen Moore.

View attachment 1162474


The next three are also Fritsch's, I think -
Scott Dixon and Nicholas Walker screenshots.
View attachment 1162476
View attachment 1162478 View attachment 1162475

There's also the new Carbow Up-Down.

The Ryan also has pics of his Walke hybrid bow in a thread somewhere
I forget which thread it's in, but I actually have two hybrid bows now, both made by Bernard Walke. My newer one has a Dragonetti-ish stick. It's basically my main bow for almost everything except jazz arco and some contemporary solo music.
 
I forget which thread it's in, but I actually have two hybrid bows now, both made by Bernard Walke. My newer one has a Dragonetti-ish stick. It's basically my main bow for almost everything except jazz arco and some contemporary solo music.
I can post pics later, but I'm not near my bass at the moment.

Basically, one of Paul Ellison's favorite bows he owns is an old, transitional, camberless German bow. A few years back he went to Bernard Walke and asked to make a copy of it as both a straight up copy of it and a version with a hybrid frog. It took a few years, but by last summer Bernard had made a copy for Paul and finished a hybrid version for Nicholas Walker in the fall.

I will say that Nicholas Walker has sold his Fritsch because the camberless Walke blew it out of the water and he now has two Walkes: a hybrid and one and one with a German frog that he uses for orchestral playing.
 
I can post pics later, but I'm not near my bass at the moment.

Basically, one of Paul Ellison's favorite bows he owns is an old, transitional, camberless German bow. A few years back he went to Bernard Walke and asked to make a copy of it as both a straight up copy of it and a version with a hybrid frog. It took a few years, but by last summer Bernard had made a copy for Paul and finished a hybrid version for Nicholas Walker in the fall.

I will say that Nicholas Walker has sold his Fritsch because the camberless Walke blew it out of the water and he now has two Walkes: a hybrid and one and one with a German frog that he uses for orchestral playing.

Yeah, when you have time, I'd love to see it! These bows are fascinating to me. If they work well, and sound good.

Also, I'd like to know why you're gravitating toward German for orchestra playing.

Are these bows Pernambuco? Is the balance more or less like a modern bow? Length? I would like to know everything. What is it that you think makes them work?
 
Yeah, when you have time, I'd love to see it! These bows are fascinating to me. If they work well, and sound good.

Also, I'd like to know why you're gravitating toward German for orchestra playing.

Are these bows Pernambuco? Is the balance more or less like a modern bow? Length? I would like to know everything. What is it that you think makes them work?
It's been a bit, but I'll answer a few of your questions.

Both of my bows are pernambuco. My Dragonetti bow is about the same length as a French bow, but my normal hybrid is somewhere in between the length of a French bow and a German bow. I prefer playing German bow for orchestra playing a bit for a historical reason (most of the canon was written by Germanic composers), but I originally started doing it to develop my technique and translate the sound I wanted to something new, if that makes sense. With the hybrid, the balance point is about where you would expect it to be on a normal bow, but on the Dragonetti bow it's a little closer to the midpoint, however both bows are evenly balanced (not tip- or frog-heavy).

I can't really put into words the difference in response, but with the Dragonetti bow I don't feel like I have to work to get the sound I want, plus it just makes the string vibrate like crazy; my bass has noticably opened up more since I started using this bow.
 
I thought I'd add these to this thread too for those interested in Boris Fritsch's hybrid bows. This is a new bow heading my way (soon, I hope).

About the bow, Boris wrote me-

"Here is what I did on the bow I am finishing : It is in the same path as the bows I made for David Moore or Paul Ellison.
The main idea is to have something very even , from overhand to underhand, especially thinking about tone quality and attack. As usual, it always took me a lot of time to just that, hence the long time needed !
To be able to be comfortable both ways, I take care of some key architectural elements:
Theses are the different balance point needed underhand and overhand, the amount of camber in the first part of the stick, and the needed distance between where your hand is resting at the back of the frog and the ferrule, where you place your finger playing underhand.
The idea is, if this distance allow your hand to rest nicely under the stick, you may feel it comfortable whatever the actual frog height is. I made it 38 mm, instead of the regular 42mm for a German bow. It is working also playing overhand, because the place where your thumb rest is placed a bit more backward , giving a normal balance ,especially associated with the great amount of camber close to the frog.
The other very important part of the making , witch is less visible, is the adjustment of the stick, to make it vibrating as dreamed ! But the most important part of it is the need for some very clean and well articulated attacks when playing overhand, but some very calm and controllable mid stick when playing underhand.
I am very happy with what I had achieved, I like the free and rather singing sound it give, and the attack that are very quick but still full and without harshness."

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I saw this on ebay and bought (for $470). It seems to be a copy of my old Pochownik "Alsatian" bow. I've had it a couple of days and it is really not bad. Doesn't have the stiffness and bite of Z's bows, but not bad ad all ( for a quarter of the price)
Master WHITE Hair Pernambuco Bass Bow SPECIAL CREATED Pure Silver Mounted

I was really intrigued by the dual purpose approach of a switch-hitting Alsatian bow, so I pinged the making in China (from the ebay link in Louis' post) and for $395 they made me one. Jus got it and have yet to play it. Just starting on learning arco and wanted to get an upgrade from my student Meisel German bow. I thought it might get me to explore arco with a French grip on occasion. Anyway, an Alsatian bow was a concept that really appealed to me and so I pulled the trigger.
Alsatian bow copy.JPG
 
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