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Fretless: Lines or No Lines?? Which is Least Annoying??

Lines or No Lines, that is the question!

  • Lines

    Votes: 68 44.2%

  • No Lines

    Votes: 86 55.8%
  • Total voters
    154
#101
Originally posted by Plus
I chose not to get lines on my neck so I could learn how to play with my ears instead of my eyes.
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Really? I only know how to play with my hands :D

Seriously though, I agree with Gary Willis' theory on lines. Ears will only tell you if the intonation is right or wrong-they can't play the note for you. What gets your hands in the proper position is first hand/eye coordination which then becomes muscle memory, and lines speed up the process. I've owned unlined and lined, and definitely pro lines now.
 
#102
Wow, this thread really blew up...

I like unlined fretless because to me there's more of a sense of freedom.

Playing for 15 years, including four years of slide trombone and countless hours of practicing slide guitar and ear trainging in college as a music major has developed my sense of pitch enough that I don't need the visual reference.

Although I must admit that there have been those gigs where I couldn't hear worth a darn, and no amount of sense of pitch cuts it then. Just "flyin' by the instruments" as pilots say. I couldn't have known if I was playing the right notes unless I looked at the frets.

On topic as far as side dots go, my unlined fretless has'em where they would be found on a fretted neck. That is to say, in order to intonate at the 3rd "fret" dot, I need to be ahead of it. That's why I no longer look, just listen.

-RH
 
#103
Originally posted by RyanHelms

On topic as far as side dots go, my unlined fretless has'em where they would be found on a fretted neck. That is to say, in order to intonate at the 3rd "fret" dot, I need to be ahead of it. That's why I no longer look, just listen.

-RH
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Wow, that's a tough setup to work with. Do you have one of those Michael Kelley acoustics or something? Those are the only ones I know offhand that have the side dots in the fretted position on an unlined board.
 
#104
I started with lines and they helped. I then sold that bass and didn't go back to fretless for close to 10 years. When I did, it had no lines. It took me a good 4-6 weeks of practicing to get on top of it. After that, it's been a piece of cake. I have been exclusively fretless for 10 years now, playing mostly rock. I have two basses. One is set up for mwah the other isn't.

Fretless has a wow stigma when players see you playing a no-lined fretless, but I am always quick to point out that 5 and 6 year olds play the violin. Just a matter of practice.

bmc
 
#106
Now that I hear all the complications in intonation when one goes fretless, this n00b is gonna stay with chrome furniture on my fretboard for awhile. I want to make music, not master something tough.

This argument is like having cams and sights on a bow. Why, real men don't need any of that crap! They pull all 80 pounds of draw and use 'the force' to hit their target every time! (consistent stance, exact same string-to-chin relationship, good instinct for point of aim and distance) Or shooting offhand and using iron sights (or not) instead of leaning up against a tree with a scope. This does work after considerable practice, and I used to be a fantastic instinct shooter with a rifle. However, someone with a laser sight on their bow or a scope on their rifle will take dinner home about 5 times more often. :D

And yet when it comes down to shooting for dollars in competition, the contestants will spend cash on every mechanical assistance within the rule book to help them succeed. Who the hell would put a scope on a handgun? It looks stupid! People who win competitions, that's who.

Do you think maybe James Jamerson was so good at his Precision because he finally got to stop worrying about whether his upright was in tune and got to BOOGIE for a change? Maybe it was newfound freedom for him...

I'll take the lines, thanks. But only later: when I know how to play the music in my heart and just want the mwahhhhh sound!
 
#107
...and some people prefer cooking to takeout.

i don't think playing fretles is an ego ("real man") kind of thing. if anything, and if i were to make analogies about it, i'd have to consider frets more like training wheels on a bicycle. you could only do so much with the training wheels on, once they're taken off though there's a whole new feeling of freedom. it's lots more fun.

i'm still playing my fretted basses 99% of the time, but my 2 new fretlesses are the basses that call to me when i'm in the house. played fretless thus far on one (easy no pressure) gig, and have my 2nd gig that i'm gonna go fretless on coming up in 2 weeks. this show is gonna be a real challenge though as it's acoustic, and a lot more challenging music than the other show i did. i'm looking forward to it.

one of my bases is lined, the other unlined. it's more challenging to play the unlined one - they're both equal amounts of fun.
 
#108
I prefer lines. There is simply no con besides the price, which is usually only $20 more or so if you're custom ordering. I don't think it matters all that much unless you are a perfectionist. I'm getting a lined fretless on my next bass because it will be a 5 string fretless and I will want all the help I can get with the switch from 4 to 5. I also play upright at school so playing fretless comes somewhat natural to me anyway.

Bottom Line: Get lines if you can, if not, don't fuss.
 
#110
I think the whole debate is pretty superfluous. It's not like somebody would suddenly make a lined player played unlined for the first time in front of 20,000 hardcore music fans who had perfect pitch recognition/hearing.

That in mind, who cares if you go unlined without "proper" hearing or musical knowledge?

Even better, is the audience going to care? "Well, he's a fine bass player and all, but he uses lines. That's like cheating, or training wheels. I have SO little respect for him now."

:hmm:

(Lines for me, BTW)
 
#111
The whole "training wheels" attitude is IMHO lame beyond words. Yeah, go ahead and tell Jaco and Jimmy Haslip they're using training wheels. Sheesh.:rolleyes: What it comes down to is, if you can play the thing well, you can, and if you can't, you can't. If you play well, no person with an iota of sense is gonna care if you used lines or not.

The argument about playing with ears rather than eyes is, if anything, even lamer. Lined players used their ears just as much as unlined players if they're any good. Nobody can play well without good ears, and nobody who's sighted plays completely without visual references. Again, the bottom line is, can you play the instrument or not?
 
#112
Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
The whole "training wheels" attitude is IMHO lame beyond words. Yeah, go ahead and tell Jaco and Jimmy Haslip they're using training wheels. Sheesh.:rolleyes: What it comes down to is, if you can play the thing well, you can, and if you can't, you can't. If you play well, no person with an iota of sense is gonna care if you used lines or not.

The argument about playing with ears rather than eyes is, if anything, even lamer. Lined players used their ears just as much as unlined players if they're any good. Nobody can play well without good ears, and nobody who's sighted plays completely without visual references. Again, the bottom line is, can you play the instrument or not?
Click to expand...

Actually an unlined player would have to rely on his ears even more... after all, with less visual cues to guide them...

:D
 
#114
Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Actually an unlined player would have to rely on his ears even more... after all, with less visual cues to guide them...

:D
Click to expand...

Not really--ears are only a guide to pitch *after* you've played the note, by which time it's too late to nail it, though you can of course fudge it (as we've all done).;) Good unlined players rely on visual cues and muscle memory, just like good lined players. (What not-so-good players of either persuasion may do isn't really relevant.) It's just that the visual cues used by unlined players happen not to include lines ... :bassist:
 
#115
Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
Not really--ears are only a guide to pitch *after* you've played the note, by which time it's too late to nail it, though you can of course fudge it (as we've all done).;) Good unlined players rely on visual cues and muscle memory, just like good lined players. (What not-so-good players of either persuasion may do isn't really relevant.) It's just that the visual cues used by unlined players happen not to include lines ... :bassist:
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Ah, but your forgot "Anticipated hearing".

"AH" is in effect the moment before you actually fret the note, along with the internalized flop sweat as you hope you hit the right note. The bassist listens really, really hard before even plucking the note;)

The lined guy knows he'll be damned close as long as he's familiar with where (in the area of the line) he/she needs to fret. Because of this confidence they don't have to deal with AH:D

That's why I play both... I love drama.
 
#116
Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Ah, but your forgot "Anticipated hearing".

"AH" is in effect the moment before you actually fret the note, along with the internalized flop sweat as you hope you hit the right note. The bassist listens really, really hard before even plucking the note;)

The lined guy knows he'll be damned close as long as he's familiar with where (in the area of the line) he/she needs to fret. Because of this confidence they don't have to deal with AH:D

That's why I play both... I love drama.
Click to expand...

LOL. I know exactly what you mean. I just figure that's why God made vibrato.;)
 
#117
I can pitch in on this thread now that I own a fretless.

My Dean fretless 5 has no lines, just side dots at the correct fret positions. It was the only fretless 5 at a nice local store around here, plus it looks and sounds killer, so lines were out of the question. It's like diving into the deep end voluntarily even if there was a shallow end which isn't there. I don't mind. My intonation probably sucks, but I don't care, I'm training my muscle memory and hearing. I use the side dots and that's enough. The rest I'll leave up to my ears. On my upright (also newly acquired) there are no markers, so it's all up to my ears there. I jammed out with some people with it and it sounded fine to me; in tune enough to sound good.

I really don't think perfect intonation is too important as long as it's close enough to not sound crappy.
 
#118
I play a de-fretted X-Factor w/ebony strips and side dots. I think what helped my intonation the most was the 15 years of playing a fretted X-Factor prior to taking up the fretless. I set the physical intonation to were my fingers had been falling for a decade and a half, and my muscle memory was there. Unlined just looks cool.
PEACE!!!!!, Johno!

P.S.Hey Steve Lawson, Howdy and Happy Holidays. I met you in Santa Barbara last year @ a Clinic. I think I had just ordered my fretless neck. Several gigs and a couple recordings later, and the intonating is going fine.
 
#119
What is the purpose of playing the bass in the first place? Are you trying to "impress" someone, "bolster" you own ego, demostrate to the world how "great" you are? Or, are you trying to make good music to provide good entertainment and enjoyment to you audience?

This entire discussion of lines vs no-lines always seems to end up with a group of bassists with their noses up in the air over those that prefer lines, spouting all sorts of inane crap about the superiority of their abilities. Some of the ones that prefer lines get all defensive when they've got nothing to be defensive about. And, another group tries to take the middle ground to calm down the no-line snobs and make the lined guys feel good, when they shouldn't have to do anything at all.

Gentlemen, the object of playing an instrument is to provide the best music that "YOU" can. If lines are a crutch, or training wheels as some of you say, then so are the side markers that are placed on the neck of your unlined fretless. In fact, using that line of thinking, so are the side markers on the fretted. In fact, let's take it all the way and say that so are the frets and side markers on a regular six-string guitar. Gee, how about the black keys and white keys on a piano. Let's just make them all the same color, same size and spacing and let the "GREAT" piano players step forth and put the crutch users to shame.

I don't really care whether or not a bass player uses lines or not. It makes no difference. The rule of measurement comes in THE QUALITY OF HIS/HER MUSIC.

Now why don't we all just play and do the best job we can. Learn and do a better job each time we do play. And, if you play fretless, use bare necks, lines, dots, or even color inlays on the neck, whatever you choose to do, and hope that your playing will be judged by your music, not your instrument.
 
#120
Originally posted by JahKnow
P.S.Hey Steve Lawson, Howdy and Happy Holidays. I met you in Santa Barbara last year @ a Clinic. I think I had just ordered my fretless neck. Several gigs and a couple recordings later, and the intonating is going fine.
Click to expand...

That's good to hear! Great to hear from you - I'm coming back to California this month - check out the gig schedule on my site - www.stevelawson.net - hope to see you soon,

Steve
www.stevelawson.net
 

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