Fretless with a low F#

[Element Zero]

... I don’t understand something so I’m gonna give my negative opinion on a topic I know nothing about...

Did I do it right?

 

[orichtvuna]

You could defret a warwick vampyre. They might even come in fretless.

 

[InternetAlias]

I don't know if you have ever played a low F# on a Dingwall but the 37" leaves the note still swimming in overtones. You would need a much larger fan.

Edited for clarity: I mean an open F# string tuned below the B string.

You really don't, if you use a really fat string. I have a .150 tuned to G# so I am not quite at F# but it is close enough.

 

[IronSpatula]

This guy has a low F# and C#...



Not how I would EQ it, but I think the low notes are pretty tastefully applied.

 

[Mr_Moo]

It can be done but even now, as the year of our Lord 2019 beckons, I have never heard a low F# reproduced convincingly in a solo setting optimised to show off a bass guitar, let alone in a band or performance setting.

Stating the range of a church organ does little to further argument since they are both absolutely massive and built for that purpose. The fact that a church organ is often part of a building should ably demonstrate the different standards at play here.

As far as I can see, bass guitars can't do it convincingly because the technology isn't there and strings, amps and speakers aren't up to the task.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

[Mr_Moo]

Wait, you mean the horse actually IS dead? Even though it's feasible/possible that he/she isn't? Hmm...

So... What kind of music? Covers or originals?

Scroëdinger's horse says 'neigh'.

 

[Mr_Moo]

Fwiw, I'm familiar with how my low A sounds through 600W - > 810. So I have a reasonably good idea of how 27.5 Hz sounds through a fairly decent standard rig.

I'm listening to the clips posted here through my tiny phone speaker. And I can hear the low notes, albeit they sound tighter than I'm used to. In fact I hear those notes much clearer in those very uncluttered mixes than standard bass notes in a typical music mix.

So I'm pretty sure that this is an example of the kind of psychoacoustic effect referred to earlier as 'filling in the low harmonics'. And also an illustration of the limits of the effect.

Now to listen through the stereo.
What's everyone else hearing, and what are you listening through?

P.S. Wouldn't most or all audible notes fall into the pressurised regime described by @micguy when listening through closed headphones?

 

[micguy]

P.S. Wouldn't most or all audible notes fall into the pressurised regime described by @micguy when listening through closed headphones?

Yes, you get the idea - closed back headphones on your head form a very small room (OK, 2 rooms). Some upper harmonics fall outside the pressure region, but all the fundamentals on a bass and a lot of harmonics are in the pressure regime. If you want even smaller room(s), try IEM’s.

 

[InternetAlias]

Yes, you get the idea - closed back headphones on your head form a very small room (OK, 2 rooms). Some upper harmonics fall outside the pressure region, but all the fundamentals on a bass and a lot of harmonics are in the pressure regime. If you want even smaller room(s), try IEM’s.

To add to this, the important part of headphone design is that your ear doesn't move inside, and there aren't multiple ears.

Therefore, considering that it is known in advance where the only listener (your ear) will be in relation to the entire room (headphone), the design can be compensated in a way to produce the best listening experience with least artifacts (for an average person, because let's be real, even ear physiology does quite a bit of comb filtering due to reflections so our ability to get the "best possible sound" is thwarted by our own body to begin with).

This completely changes for rooms where there are multiple listeners. This is why I play in drop G# with a HPF set at about 50-60hz (that and also it means my SpectraComp maintains a more even volume since it doesn't have to react to subs).

 

[micguy]

Why, the hell, do you kneed a bass with a low F#. Are you gona play death, hell, psychodelic, doom, black, coocluxclan, hitler metal ??

It’s well known around here that, among other things, the best bass for death psycho doom black hitler metal incorporates low F# tuning.

I play in churches, and even I know that. ;-)

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Why, the hell, do you kneed a bass with a low F#. Are you gona play death, hell, psychodelic, doom, black, coocluxclan, hitler metal ??

If it's within the human hearing range, why not use it in music?

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

You really don't, if you use a really fat string. I have a .150 tuned to G# so I am not quite at F# but it is close enough.

I wish you luck in your future endeavor but I have played a Combustion with an elevator cable-thick string and it was still swimming in overtones. It basically sounded like "whomp, whomp, whomp."

 

[InternetAlias]

I wish you luck in your future endeavor but I have played a Combustion with an elevator cable-thick string and it was still swimming in overtones. It basically sounded like "whomp, whomp, whomp."

What does "swimming in overtones" even mean?

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

If it's within the human hearing range, why not use it in music?

Doesn't the low F# fall out of range (around 30hz)? That is why we pretty much just hear the overtones. Isn't that the range at which animals feel earthquakes in the grounds?

What does "swimming in overtones" even mean?

It means the notes had no definition, they were mostly thudding bass with a lot more sonic content that simply an F#.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Doesn't the low F# fall out of range (around 30hz)? That is why we pretty much just hear the overtones. Isn't that the range at which animals feel earthquakes in the grounds?

Human hearing is down to 20Hz on average so it's well within range for most/many people. The lowest note on an extended piano keyboard is down at 16.5Hz which some will be able to hear.

Interesting though is the gauges of piano strings compared to the oversized bass guitar strings used for very low tunings... even on a standard piano the lowest string is 1/3rd of an inch in diameter, imagine that on a bass

 

[Sid the Kid]

I wish you luck in your future endeavor but I have played a Combustion with an elevator cable-thick string and it was still swimming in overtones. It basically sounded like "whomp, whomp, whomp."

The overtones may be less of an issue on a fretless. Without the frets to impact the decay of the note the overtones would have a chance to bloom more naturally. The oscillation sound of the lowest notes and a vibrato sound aren’t too far off in tone either.

I could see this being more of an issue on fretted bass. Specifically one with a bridge cable string designed to make 1 low note sound good, sacrificing the tone of all the other notes on the string. On the other hand I can see the overtone stew being useful for metal players who have their Darkglass pedals on all of the time.

 

[Kaleb Smith]

Does anyone know of any fretless basses with a low F#?

If I'm not mistaken, there's a Curbow 7 string fretless

 

[ixlramp]

BruceWane and InternetAlias are correct.

Does anyone know of any fretless basses with a low F#?

Yes many, but mostly custom.

E1 is already, what, 44 Hz? So halve that for E0 and you're pretty much out of audible range and into "feel" territory. Is that what you're aiming for?

F# below B is above E0. The fundamental will be less hearable but the harmonics are very hearable.

Once I got down to A or G# (below the usual B string), the sound quality and volume really fell off. Part of this is related to the amount of power required to make the lower notes (fundamentals) audible.

The fundamental is increasingly unimportant the lower you go. A B fundamental is 31Hz which is not reproduced by most amplification.

That being said, most people who try to explore the lower frequency strings do so because they want to hear the fundamental.

No, they understand more than any that the fundamental is fairly unimportant and completely unessential (it also has little amplitude compared to the 2nd harmonic). The fundamental is actually increasingly important the higher the note is.

 

[ixlramp]

the technology isn't there and strings, amps and speakers aren't up to the task.

For F#, you are incorrect. F# really isn't low at all anymore. There are already fully functional strings for the C# and G# (13Hz) below F#. Sub-amplification is available for bass, it's just not mainstream. Kalium have a sub with flat response to 20Hz. Other types of sub amplification is very common in PA systems.

Stating the range of a church organ does little to further argument since they are both absolutely massive and built for that purpose. The fact that a church organ is often part of a building

A PA system can also be massive and is built for the purpose, it's also not limited by acoustic power butt by electrical power. A stadium concert sound system is far louder that a church organ.

The cutoff for most people is around 20hz

Commonly stated but actually refers to a typical small hearing test setup. The fact is with enough power and sound pressure, any frequency is hearable.

but what's the point? How many sound systems (stage rig, PA, home and automotive) are going to be able to accurately reproduce such low pitches?

The fundamental is not important, the fundamental of B is not reproduced either.

I don't know if you have ever played a low F# on a Dingwall but the 37" leaves the note still swimming in overtones. You would need a much larger fan.

It means the notes had no definition, they were mostly thudding bass with a lot more sonic content that simply an F#.

What gauge and brand of string? Some are very stiff and inharmonic, some are under-tensioned. A good, flexible and well-tensioned string is very defined at F#, try a Kalium.
37" or 35" is long enough for a good sounding F#.

 

[Ric5]

Commonly stated but actually refers to a typical small hearing test setup. The fact is with enough power and sound pressure, any frequency is hearable.

there are frequencies that are above and below human hearing no matter how much power there is