Fretless with a low F#

[spade2you]

I have now... that is one hell of a bass he plays.

One? He has (or had) several.

 

[spade2you]

I didn't have much of an urge to mess with a low F# string. Took me enough effort to get the low B exactly where I wanted it. Most of which would have been a 30 second search if I had a time machine. I never really messed with dropped A on my 34" and 35" scale basses. I occasionally tune my baritone acoustic to dropped A, but this is for unaccompanied playing.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

me thinks he meant the subsonic F#

Not technically infrasound as it’s within the average human hearing range, just...

 

[micguy]

But to cut a long story short, you don't need a big space for a low note. You hear frequency, not wavelength.

Acoustical Physicist chiming in here. I agree you don’t need a big space for a low note. But I disagree on the other point - you do end up hearing wavelengths most of the time.

Rooms have 3 regions in terms of what they do to sound waves, and it is determined by wavelengths.

1) Very low frequencies. If the wavelength of the sound is much larger than the room’s dimensions, the room pressurises - you hear the same level of that frequency everywhere. A practical example of this is a low frequencies in a car. A low E on a bass is 41 Hx - a 27 foot wavelength. The car’s interior is much smaller - it’s a pressure vessel.

2) Modal region - when the room dimensions are comparable to the wavelengh, you get standing waves. Move around the room, the sound will change. In thus region, yes, you’re hearing wavelengths. In a decent sized room or hall, the low end of a bass guitar is operating in this region.

3) Higher frequencies. When the wavelength is much smaller than the room dimensions, you can think of ray tracing to figure out what things will sound like. Practically speaking, we’re not discussing this operating region in this thread.[/QUOTE]

 

[Greyvagabond]

My fretless has a low F and I find it musically useful. But it's almost as if what people find musically useful is up to subjective taste.

It's not as hard to amplify or hear as is purported by some. For instance, I practice through a Phil Jones Double Four, it's the size of a shoe box and it has no issues amplifying the low F.

In an ensemble setting obviously, low notes have a harder time cutting through clearly. However, the point is not always to hear notes as clear as a bell. With notes in that range, you might not hear them clearly, but you hear the effect, and you certainly feel them.

Go listen to Salazh Trio, and tell me that Jeroen's low F# can't be heard or doesn't add a new dynamic to the sound. Actually, I'll just link it.

Thanks for the link. That's a super cool song and groove. Never expect to actually HEAR a low F#, but its a thing for sure. Hard to make it sound not like a novelty, but this pulls it off.

 

[el_Bajo_Verde]

Do you need to go to Roebling for the string? I don't even know if there is a gauge that accommodates this.

Kalium

 

[bholder]

This one goes to E0 a full step below that F#:

Though I do agree with the points made about finding a sound system to produce notes that low. I may have found a solution, haven't had a chance to try it yet.

 

[bholder]

Kalium

Skip's the man for low tuning strings and basses (also the maker of Quake basses, which are back on the market with a new fanned design).

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Acoustical Physicist chiming in here. I agree you don’t need a big space for a low note. But I disagree on the other point - you do end up hearing wavelengths most of the time.

Rooms have 3 regions in terms of what they do to sound waves, and it is determined by wavelengths.

1) Very low frequencies. If the wavelength of the sound is much larger than the room’s dimensions, the room pressurises - you hear the same level of that frequency everywhere. A practical example of this is a low frequencies in a car. A low E on a bass is 41 Hx - a 27 foot wavelength. The car’s interior is much smaller - it’s a pressure vessel.

2) modal region - when the room dimensions are comparable to the wavelengh, you get standing waves. Move around the room, the sound will change. In thus region, yes, you’re hearing wavelengths. In a decent sized room or hall, the liw end of a bass guitar is operating in this region.

3) Higher frequencies. When the wavelength is much smaller than the room dimensions, you can think of ray tracing to figure out what things will sound like. Practically speaking, we’re not discussing this operating region in this thread.

I only studied Acoustics and Noise Control, so I won’t claim the word physicist. My point is it does not matter where in a sound wave you are, you are hearing the frequency of the sound wave. The wavelength is not needed for perception of frequency, or you wouldn’t hear anything through earphones with wavelength less than the length of the external auditory canal. Your ears respond to the frequency of the compressions and rarefactions irrespective of wavelength or of experiencing a full wave.

 

[micguy]

My point is it does not matter where in a sound wave you are, you are hearing the frequency of the sound wave.

Your ears hear pressure. If you move around in a standing wave, there are places where the pressure cancels, and places where it adds. While the frequency you hear may not change, how loud it is at that frequency will depend a LOT on where you are with respect to the wave.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Your ears hear pressure. If you move around in a standing wave, there are places where the pressure cancels, and places where it adds. While the frequency you hear may not change, how loud it is at that frequency will depend a LOT on where you are with resoect to the wave.

Different outside where there are no reflections - you hear the frequency wherever you are in the wave, subject to -6dB per doubling of distance of course. The original point was, you don’t need to be in a large space to hear a low note.

 

[micguy]

Different outside where there are no reflections - you hear the frequency wherever you are in the wave, subject to -6dB per doubling of distance of course. The original point was, you don’t need to be in a large space to hear a low note.

I agreed that you don’t need a large space to hear a low note. My point was that wavelengths are almost always important in Acoustics.

Outside is certainly simpler, but there is one reflection, and it’s very robust at any wavelength - there’s a huge surface - the ground. Depending on the location of source and ears, you’ll get some cancellations due to the path length difference between direct and reflected paths - if you’ve got a half wavelength path difference, for example, you’ll get cancellation. An octave up, you’ll get additive reinforcement. Yes, where you are matters, even outside.

 

[Ric5]

Not technically infrasound as it’s within the average human hearing range, just...

The cutoff for most people is around 20hz and the F# is slightly above that … so technically you are correct, but most of us will have our hearing diminishing at that point.

I find the low A just below the low B is the lowest useful note on a bass for me and that is a minor third above the low F#

 

[Deleted member 165050]

I agreed that you don’t need a large space to hear a low note. My point was that wavelengths are almost always important in Acoustics.

Outside is certainly simpler, but there is one reflection, and it’s very robust at any wavelength - there’s a huge surface - the ground. Depending on the location of source and ears, you’ll get some cancellations due to the path length difference between direct and reflected paths - if you’ve got a half wavelength path difference, for example, you’ll get cancellation. An octave up, you’ll get additive reinforcement. Yes, where you are matters, even outside.

Generally reflection from the ground outdoors isn’t back at the listener, unless there’s a building or a hill or suchlike of course.

Sound propagation is a fascinating subject, as is the hearing mechanism and how we perceive variations in air pressure.

Anyway I’m not bothering with a low F# myself, low B is enough for me...

 

[micguy]

Generally reflection from the ground outdoors isn’t back at the listener, unless there’s a building or a hill or suchlike of course.

Sound propagation is a fascinating subject.

Yes, sound propagation is a fascinating topic. Including the fact that the ground gives significant reflections at low frequencies, regardless of where the source and listener are - the long wavelengths and source sizes pretty much guarantee that.

If you imagine the ground as a mirror, and are facing the source, the reflection you see in front of you on the ground of the source shows you the path of the ground reflection.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Yes, sound propagation is a fascinating topic. Including the fact that the ground gives significant reflections at low frequencies, regardless of where the source and listener are - the long wavelengths and source sizes pretty much guarantee that.

If you imagine the ground as a mirror, and are facing the source, the reflection you see in front of you on the ground of the source shows you the path of the ground reflection.

If you’re the bass player, probably not going to hear too much coming back at you.

 

[micguy]

Yep, you got it, combine that reflection with a direct path, and you’ve got low frequency outdoor propagation pretty well figured out. Whether you’re the bass player or in the audience, you’ll hear that ground reflection comb filter with the direct path.

High freq’s outdoors are a whole other story.

 

[gitfiddl]

Maybe it's just the FOG in me, but what's the point? How many sound systems (stage rig, PA, home and automotive) are going to be able to accurately reproduce such low pitches? And at what expense if they can and do?

 

[Inara]

To the OP - you might get answers here: Extended Range Bass Club Thread (Part 2), though it doesn't seem as active as it once was. I have no personal input, as I'm not an ERB type, but I remembered that there is a club here on TB, so looked up the club thread. I searched this thread and didn't catch a mention of the ERB club, but if it's already been posted and I missed it, my apologies.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Yep, you got it, combine that reflection with a direct path, and you’ve got low frequency outdoor propagation pretty well figured out. Whether you’re the bass player or in the audience, you’ll hear that ground reflection comb filter with the direct path.

Any such interference (minimal depending on the ground surface) would be in the wave travelling away from the source - unlikely it would be heard by someone standing at the source ie the bass player.