Fretless with Lines?

[MusicBear]

One of my friends started out as an upright bassist so he is very accustomed to an unlined fingerboard. When he had his fretless bass custom-built it originally had an unlined fingerboard. His fretless bass has a very straight and uniform neck without much taper, so relying upon feel (as I can do with my fretless P-J) did not work for him. This was no problem when he played backup in sessions but he encountered difficulty performing live as a lead singer and frontman. He had lines retrofitted to his bass so that, when necessary, he can flick a very quick glance at the fingerboard to help check his hand position.

He was as surprised by the need for lines as I was that he had them added.

 

[Kael]

Don't be surprised. There really aren't any similarities between double bass and fretless bass guitar. The argument that double basses aren't lined and therefore neither should be bass guitars are almost always made by people who don't play double bass. There are massive physical landmarks that, when coupled with the larger scale length, make "lines" on a double bass unnecessary.

 

[frankie5string]

Hah... I remember someone saying about fretless "Screw playing without lines... It's not about looking cool, it's about getting the job done... don't be afraid of lines".

All my fretless basses have lines...

 

[Derek Balonek]

Really didn't intend to turn this into a "lines vs no lines" battle, but I'm still dumb-founded as to how you can see the actual surface of the fretboard while playing, I can tell where I am by looking, but when I really pay attention to what I'm looking at, it turns out that it's strictly the ends of the frets and not the surface of the fingerboard.

um.....maybe I oughta lose 20 lbs of so, see it changes my...um..."line of sight" to my bass while playing

Do you play sitting or standing? Sitting gives a bit of a better view of the lines, but standing will give you a mostly edge-on view.

 

[John Wentzien]

Oh heck! Gimme the lines! (even though I don't like to admit it)

 

[mtb777]

I'm riding the fence all the way........
My PentaBuzz 5..................................Lined, side and fingerboard dots.
My new NS CR4T.................................No lines.....but a whole buttload of finger board dots!
My Tacoma ThunderChief 5 .................. No lines, side dots.
My MIJ Fender Jazz 4...........................No lines, side dots.
No real difference to me either way. I DO use the side markers a lot and would trade some of those fingerboard dots on the NS for some side markers!

 

[Fishbrain]

I play lined fretless and don't have a problem with it. I did buy an unlined first (purely for looks) and it wasn't playing in tune that I found a problem. Without the grid that the strings crossing the frets/fretlines makes I was finding myself completely lost looking for the simplest patterns I'd come to recognise. And I mean patterns in a very literal sense, ie the triangle that makes a major triad etc.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I think this is a "technique" topic. If not, admin feel free to move it.

Just made a fretless neck, my inaugural plunge into building (more to come on that "experience" in another topic), and made it "lineless" as well as fretless.

I'm a relative noob, playing for a couple years. Looking at fretless basses, both new and de-fretted, and I'm having trouble understanding the whole point of lines on the fretboard. It seems obvious, until I paid careful attention while I was playing.

When I'm playing, and look at the neck, I don't see the face of the fretboard, only the top edge. If I do look to place my fingers, the only visual indication I get is seeing the frets "end-on".

It seems, fret markers on the edge of the neck would be far more functional than on the face of the finger-board.

Typically, a fret slot is cut all the way across the fingerboard. So if you fill it with something in a contrasting color to get the lined effect (eg, white plastic or light maple strips against an ebony board), you're still going to see the ends of the "pseudofrets"--that is, you'll have your built-in edge markers. So even in those terms, it would seem there really isn't a problem.

I can easily see my fretlines when I play, and I don't think I'm doing anything special or unusual. Unless ... how high do you have your bass when you play? If it's really low, you might find it harder to see lines. Just a thought.

Also, I have seen some makers do side markers only, or even half-fretlines that don't extend all of the way across.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I'm on the line that you should play with your ears, not your eyes.

Of course, as has been said here many times, you can't hear what you're playing before you play the note, so however you determine where you place your hands to produce the note, it can't be by ear--it has to be by muscle memory, visual cues, physical landmarks, or some combination of any or all of those.

 

[Kael]

Of course, as has been said here many times, you can't hear what you're playing before you play the note, so however you determine where you place your hands to produce the note, it can't be by ear--it has to be by muscle memory, visual cues, physical landmarks, or some combination of any or all of those.

Shhhh!!!! If more people start realizing this, then more people will start playing in tune. Then there goes my edge for the hired gun fretless work.

 

[bucephylus]

When I'm playing, and look at the neck, I don't see the face of the fretboard, only the top edge. If I do look to place my fingers, the only visual indication I get is seeing the frets "end-on".

It seems, fret markers on the edge of the neck would be far more functional than on the face of the finger-board.

If I can't see the fingerboard without doing something that feels quite strange, is my techique somehow "different" than "normal"?

This is related to a sometimes antagonistic dispute that never goes away on this board; which accounts for some of the sort of OT responses.

Your question is actually a good one. The answer, based on my experience, is that you are completely correct that the perception of the fingerboard in the lower positions while holding the bass in normal playing position is by way of the view of the side of the fingerboard. And, indeed, only the side of the line where it intersects the edge of the lined fingerboard is visible. This and the various orientations of different players to the dots has led to fretless construction where there are no lines and dots are placed where the fret lines would be for visual reference. Please note, in spite of all the arguments, essentially all trained players use some form of visual reference on a fretless bass guitar; either dots or line edges on the fretboard edge for lower positions. Either is equally effective, IME.

Lines on the fingerboard become much more useful, and perhaps essential for some players, above the octave position. That upper register area is quite visible on the fingerboard in normal playing position; and, since very small adjustments or inaccuracies of stops can have a more significant impact on the result in the upper register, the visual references on the fingerboard there can be useful. Some instruments, such as some of the F Basses have partial lines above the octave and side dots below. That is pretty well thought out.

In any case, your original observation is correct. Most of the visual reference systems can be made to work. I would personally be reluctant to play some of the more well known melodies in the upper register live without any fingerboard upper register references.

Hope that helps.

IMO

 

[jim777]

Hah... I remember someone saying about fretless "Screw playing without lines... It's not about looking cool, it's about getting the job done... don't be afraid of lines".

All my fretless basses have lines...

I think Ed Friedland said something like that in his review of the Clement fretless bass. I'll go watch it again and check though.
EDIT: It wasn't in the Youtube review, it was in the written review in Bass Gear Magazine. I'm sure others have said it though

 

[Billnc]

Tonight I played an unlined fretless exclusively except one half a song (back to fretless after drum solo) I stand by my previous statement. I don't want to wear reading glasses on stage, unlined fretless alleviates that problem.