Double Bass fretmarkers on upright???? huh

[Michael Case]

I think using markers as a practice tool or in a specific gig/recording situation is fine. I don't think one should use them full time. first of all think of how bad it is to wrench your neck in the right direction to look at the fingerboard. Plus how are you gonna read your real book if your lookin' at fingerboard markers.

 

[JoeyNaeger]

I frequently use pencil markings to do some "target practice" as my teacher says when I'm not hitting something right.

 

[drurb]

Yes, he's right, but it's a pretty small difference. A soundpost adjustment isn't going to change the string length. Moving the bridge would, a little bit--although it doesn't seem to bother edgar any

Agreed about the soundpost by itself but he coupled that with a bridge adjustment.

I NEVER look at my left hand while playing except, perhaps, in TP. I guess that stems from years of classical training (although what I play now is almost exclusively jazz). You can't be reading orchestral music if you're looking at your hands-- even in TP.

 

[Marc Piane]

I think the important thing to realize is that fingerboard markers do not make you play in tune. They get you close but you still have to be able to fine tune or intonate you notes.

 

[Jake]

Also, I don't think Edgar NEEDS the dots to play in tune. I don't think he had them when he was in college or early in his career and he was amazing then.

 

[PB+J]

I don't LOOK at my hand, but i often see , out of the corner of my eye, and I assume--I could be wrong--that this figures into my playing, to the degree that I'm in tune. I assume all seeing pelople do this to some extent--maybe not?

 

[uptonbass]

LET ME JUST PREFACE THIS: I always have a hard time exlaining exactly what my mind means!!! The numbers are easier to verbalize than to write.......

As far as the intonation and the variations of such on a marker changed by: a fingerboard plane, bridge adjustment/re-cut, post move etc. EVEN all of the above, the variation is far too inconsequential for the player needing the marker or any player for that matter. WHY?

The repeatability of the human/hand is less exact than the change or movement of the dot marker.... example:

String Lenght of 42" D stop is at 14" SL/6 x2 then the octave is at 21" or 1/2 of the SL

SL of 42 1/2 D stop is at 14.05" thats a variation of 5 hunderdths of an inch or 1.27mm. and your octave at 21.06".

The above sounds to support the idea HOWEVER IF you change the height of your bridge ½ an inch from 42" (that’s quite a bit) and nothing else changes, your string length has ONLY changed roughly .07 of an inch. that’s 7 hundredths people!!! Apply that change to my equation for the D stop on the string lenght above taking a 42” length to 42.07 or the lesser 41.93 if the bridge was chopped down, divided the dif of both by 6 to find your D stop multiplying by 2 and you have a dif of .046 inch in the location of the proposed D marker. DO NOTE we are talking the extremes of the inch. Meaning taking the bridge from 5.5 to 6.5

Plain example: If you moved from the 42 to 42.07 via the 1/2 inch increase in your bridge height your D stop has moved from 14 inches to 14.02 inches…..CAN you even see that difference of .02" is the TRUE question????? Were talking .5mm if everything is kept strictly in place.

Yes this would make one "out of tune" if you were a computer.

A compounded change; sinking top, bridge cut, and fingerboard dress could however make these reference points bad. Even IF it were done on this "not so perfect candidate" the change measured above is less measurebale than the human playing the bass can make up for. What the heck do I mean.....read again

That being said I am not a fan of inlays and truly a pencil user if needed, although I do gladly offer markers on basses when requested by the player

oh boy.....

feel free to check my figures

 

[Simandl Fan]

I mark our school's basses with a small dot of White-Out on the side of the fingerboard at the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th position points. No one else can see them, since they are on the side, and you can easily scratch it off with a fingernail.

 

[Don Higdon]

...As far as the intonation and the variations of such on a marker changed by: a fingerboard plane, bridge adjustment/re-cut, post move etc. EVEN all of the above, the variation is far too inconsequential for the player needing the marker or any player for that matter...The repeatability of the human/hand is less exact than the change or movement of the dot marker.... example:
...(etc)....
Yes this would make one "out of tune" if you were a computer.

Reading this, I went downstairs and tuned a bass. Then, I turned one adjuster 1/2 a turn. To the naked eye, the difference in string length was invisible. To the ear, the difference was palpable. I put the Korg on it, and found it had changed A440 to A445. Oboes and fiddles have brawls over 5 CPS.

 

[uptonbass]

Don,

My calculations are based on making the changes, bringing/tuning the bass back to A440 and then measuring the movement of the marker.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

Even Edgar doesn't hit every cold note absolutely in tune, even with a marker. In a good player, the ear adjusts the hand. A bad player sounds out of tune and bad. With markers or without.

 

[drurb]

I don't LOOK at my hand, but i often see , out of the corner of my eye, and I assume--I could be wrong--that this figures into my playing, to the degree that I'm in tune. I assume all seeing pelople do this to some extent--maybe not?

I doubt you see with sufficient resolution out of the corner of your eye to aid in intonation. Here's a simple test. Close your eyes (I often do when I play anyway). Does your intonation suffer? I can only speak for myself. I believe I do not use any visual information with regard to my left hand when playing. It's all "feel" and hearing. That's how I was taught. To each his own.

 

[drurb]

Don,

My calculations are based on making the changes, bringing/tuning the bass back to A440 and then measuring the movement of the marker.

This is very important! Yes, you have to re-tune the string. In addition, I wish to point out that Gary Upton's calculations actually overestimate the change. If you raise the bridge by 1/2 inch, the effective string length changes by less than half an inch. Think of the top of the bass and the bridge as the base and height, respectively, of a right triangle. The string is the hypotenuse.

Okay, so real-life changes in setup seem to lead to negligible changes regarding the utility of markers. I still don't believe in them for all but beginners or for "special occasions" when you wish to nail a note as some have described. As for me, I have never used them for the latter but I might if I were in the demanding situations that others have described.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I don't LOOK at my hand, but i often see , out of the corner of my eye, and I assume--I could be wrong--that this figures into my playing, to the degree that I'm in tune. I assume all seeing pelople do this to some extent--maybe not?

I always play most in tune when my eyes are closed. Kind of an "intonation voodoo" thing. Maybe I should just wear dark glasses on stage?

 

[PB+J]

Maybe I should just wear dark glasses on stage?

Worked for Ray Charles!!

I actually can't find much rhyme or reason as to when I have good intonation and when it's off. It's never as good as I want it to be, but sometimes it seems pretty dern good and sometimes I'm not even in the same zip code as the note I want. Obviously being able to hear yourself on a gig helps, and not overplaying, but even at home some days I'm spot on, then an hour later....

My ears seem to me to be more variable than anything else--like those arguments about the differnces between cables. I'm sure they're there, but my ears seem to vary more from hour to hour than the differences between cables--sometimes I think I have great tone in the morning, then in the afternoon, i think "ugh." Sometimes it's the other way around.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Boy talk about a thread coming back from the dead. I wish Ray Parker could come back and chime in on this. I think he put markers on his bass as an experiment but I don't think we ever heard his conclusion. If you look at his website, you can see photos of him using various white dots on his bass.

I can say for myself tho that my intonation has improved alot since I bought a used NSDesign CR4. My DB doesn't have markers, but practicing the visuals on the CR4 gives me the right LH spacing as well as hitting some of the other notes better when I go back to the DB. I tended to be sharp before but I think I'm alot more on now. Pretty cool.

 

[drurb]

I have often wondered if someone has done a study of the intonation of players of stringed instruments such as the DB. Surely someone has. A number of questions come to mind. For example:

1) What are the typical intonation errors of a virtuoso, a "seasoned" player, and a beginner?

2) How does the "adjustment" take place and along what time-scale? That is, is there error at the onset which is quickly corrected by the professional player?

3) How much is "covered" by vibrato?

Of course, there are many more such questions but I'll leave it there.

 

[uptonbass]

In addition, I wish to point out that Gary Upton's calculations actually overestimate the change. If you raise the bridge by 1/2 inch, the effective string length changes by less than half an inch.

As stated in my past post the 1/2 inch increase in the bridge height would change the string length .07 of an inch working with a 6" bridge and 42" string length. Only effecting a marker by .02....again is it states below. Should be no over-estimation other than when I contrasted from 5.5" to 6.5"

Find A in the Pythagorean theorem: C+B multiplied by C-B then take that figures square root. Then you have a fixed A and can play with B (bridge height) seeing how it effects the hypotenuse (string length)

They should be right on mathematically Les! I know you will check my work!

 

[drurb]

As stated in my past post the 1/2 inch increase in the bridge height would change the string length .07 of an inch working with a 6" bridge and 42" string length. Only effecting a marker by .02....again is it states below. Should be no over-estimation other than when I contrasted from 5.5" to 6.5"

Find A in the Pythagorean theorem: C+B multiplied by C-B then take that figures square root. Then you have a fixed A and can play with B (bridge height) seeing how it effects the hypotenuse (string length)

They should be right on mathematically Les! I know you will check my work!

I see. My apologies, it was not clear to me that you got the 0.07 after making that calculation. Your numbers are right on the button!

Gary: 1
Les: 0

...for today anyway!

 

[uptonbass]