Double Bass fretmarkers on upright???? huh

[Uncletoad]

Worked for Ray Charles!!

When did Ray Charles play bass? Was he as good as Ray Brown? Same first name, he's halfway there.

Maybe I should change my name to Ray. Might play in tune better.

 

[Kam]

I do some gigs with a sax player who wears sunglasses all the time. Inside, outside, light, dark. Boy ain't right.

 

[Marc Piane]

I play with a singer that always wants me to wear sunglasses. It is an R&B thing. The dress code for the group is all black. I always seem to 'forget' to bring them.

 

[D McCartney]

I do some gigs with a sax player who wears sunglasses all the time. Inside, outside, light, dark. Boy ain't right.

Wow, man! Dig those crazy dialated pupils.

 

[LowG]

When I get hired to do studio work, dots go on the bass. It really sucks to be wasting peoples money on getting notes out of tune, and easy to not get hired again. Live, the notes are here and gone, but the tape remembers. Producers want that "upright sound" but do not want that "upright intonation problem".

Live, I just go on feel, but I wouldn't keep myself from using a marker if it was called for.

But, dots/lines only get you so far. Your ear and technique is still the major factor. Try putting a line on the bass and check to see how much pitch can vary depending on how your finger/hand/arm is pressing down the string while keeping your finger on the line. That's the principal underlying vibrato.

Also - a factor in why bass sections in orchestras sound so huge and rich is the SLIGHT variation in pitch between the instruments. Granted, out of tune sounds bad, and bass sections are notorious for it, but any groups of players on fretless instruments are not going to be PERFECTLY in tune. Leave that to the computers. Imperfection is part of personality.

What is really "in tune" outside of 5th and octaves is a slippery slope - ask any piano tuner.

 

[Ron Lacey]

That being said I am not a fan of inlays and truly a pencil user if needed, although I do gladly offer markers on basses when requested by the player

And I appreciate the subtle, permabuco inlaid dots on my Upton hybrid. I also play guitar, mandolin, bass guitar, and banjo (none well, but I play them anyway) and the inlays help me adjust to the longer scale length of the UB when I switch instruments. Once I've been playing for a bit, muscle memory takes over and I'm generally OK unless I'm having a bad ear day, which happens from time to time for no apparent reason.

If I were strictly a bass player I probably spent a few bucks extra that I didn't need to, but for me the dots are a nice touch. <Rumsfield mode ON> Could I live without them? Sure. Would I want to? No. Would I get them again? Goodness, gracious, you bet. <Rumsfield mode OFF>

 

[swamprocker]

i have lines on side of my bass. i don't pay attention to them the majority of the time. only when i'm tuning. and get this, I USE A BASS TUNER:scowl:

boy, am I glad I play that filthy rockabilly music and have a GREAT time doing it not having to worry if someone has 'cheat markings' on their intsruments b/c what do I care. i'm playing the UB for ME and I'm LOVING it.

 

[Michael Case]

You'd love it more without the cheat marks.

 

[swamprocker]

You'd love it more without the cheat marks.

maybe but I have a TERRIBLE ear

 

[Michael Case]

Yeah, I only use them marks for practice. Even then I limit the use of them, I'm trying to work on my ear. I thought playing the bass was difficult.

 

[Don Higdon]

Also - a factor in why bass sections in orchestras sound so huge and rich is the SLIGHT variation in pitch between the instruments.

This is contrary to my experience.
10+ years of unamplified string duo playing taught me the opposite.
Neeme Jarvi is proving it with the New Jersey Symphony, by keeping the orchestra in better tune than his predecessor.
Choirs sound bigger when pitch is accurate.
The Horace Silver Quintet always sounded like more than five.
The Mulligan Concert Band sounded enormous playing a simple triad.

 

[drurb]

Also - a factor in why bass sections in orchestras sound so huge and rich is the SLIGHT variation in pitch between the instruments.

This is contrary to my experience.
10+ years of unamplified string duo playing taught me the opposite.

Well, you're both essentially correct. Very, very slight variations away from dead-on pitch, of the sort dgelting was referencing do add to a "bigger" sound as do differences in vibrato (even preserving mean pitch accuracy), as do slightly different overtone structures.

 

[El Thumpo]

I've experimented a lot with markers, and after a while found a middle path that seems to be working for me.

Instead of visual markers I put tactile ones in place. Tiny little squares of black electrical tape. Unless I haul the bass into an especially bright light, I can't see them (even though they're on the side facing me), so no crippling optical dependency going on there. But in moments of less than supreme confidence, I can run a fingertip across them, Braille-like, and refresh my mental map of the fingerboard.

Because I touch them instead of seeing them, they don't register as "targets"--i.e., I'm not trying to "hit" them with my fingerings. Which means I can comfortably adjust my intonation to whatever relative position sounds right at the time. I'm still relying on my ears to nail the note, but the tactile aspect makes sure I don't drift off course, particularly during position shifts.

It seems like the key is to bypass the visual part of the brain, and keep the communication entirely between the hands and the ear. Has anyone else had success with this kind of approach?

 

[drurb]

I've experimented a lot with markers, and after a while found a middle path that seems to be working for me.

...I can run a fingertip across them, Braille-like, and refresh my mental map of the fretboard.

I'm still relying on my ears to nail the note, but the tactile aspect makes sure I don't drift off course, particularly during position shifts...

Well, that would be the fingerboard. I don't understand. If they're just used as approximations, why do you need them at all?

 

[El Thumpo]

Well, that would be the fingerboard. I don't understand. If they're just used as approximations, why do you need them at all?

They're at the theoretically correct positions. But since they're not a visual line, you don't have a sense of being "off" the marker when you adjust the fingering based on your ear. It's like an autopilot--it brings you to the general area of your destination, but the actual landing calls for the human touch.

 

[Ludwig]

I have a few small markers on the side. If I play several position changes, sometimes my placement is off. I hear that I am not on target, but have problems hearing if too low or too high. A short glance to the marker tells me in what direction to correct. Since I play from paper sheets exclusivly (no improvisation, no playing from memory), I don't have time to use the markings for anything else, have to keep the eyes on the paper. Since the connection of the neck to the body gives some markers already, only two markers between neck an body and two markers over the body is all I need (not too much playing in thumb position).

 

[drurb]

They're at the theoretically correct positions. But since they're not a visual line, your don't have a sense of being "off" the marker when you adjust the fingering based on your ear. It's like an autopilot--it brings you to the general area of your destination, but the actual landing calls for the human touch.

That's just it-- why do you need markers to get you to the "general area?" That's what "muscle memory" is about. Usually markers are employed to get you to the "actual landing" if they are used at all (for example, see ludwig's post immediately above). I don't use markers. My success (or lack thereof) aside, I use proprioception (muscle memory) and my ears to land the notes. If I were ever to consider markers at all, it would be to ensure a "dead-on" landing-- not to get me in the general area. To each his own. Hey, if it works for you...

 

[rprowse]

When I play F on my G string it seems to sit just where the finger board leaves the wood of the neck. That's my only marker, but I didn't put it there!
I know what you mean about recording though. I don't get to do it much but, a little while ago I recorded with a Latin band. When I started to get tired, intonation was my biggest problem, I found myself simplifing my lines in the interest of band intonation.
I do often use harmonics as markers... nature's markers!

 

[robobass]

Don&#8217;t use a pencil! Go to Walmart or somewhere and you can find adhesive dots in the school supplies section. They come in nice colors like bright pink. Put them dead in the middle of the board so they don&#8217;t interfere with the strings (I hate to see school bass fingerboards with strips of masking tape across the entire width, or around bows, that&#8217;s just horrible!). I stick them on my students&#8217; basses at the natural harmonic positions. This is helpful since they don&#8217;t always play on the same bass, and I teach scales well into thumb position pretty much from the beginning. I stick dots on my own basses when I have adult students coming over for lessons. This creates a little comedy when I then take the bass out for a gig. I find myself looking for the dot sometimes when I wouldn&#8217;t be thinking about finding the note at all if the dots weren&#8217;t there. And, well, I am generally pretty well paid for freelance jobs, so I know some people must be scratching their heads when they notice pink dots on my board.

As far as Edgar goes, I don&#8217;t quite understand. I play mainly orchestra stuff, so I don&#8217;t have to make leaps into the stratosphere the way he does, but when I do have a big forward shift to make, I just practice the move on the bass I will be performing on until I get it consistent. I don&#8217;t see how markers would help me. When I play solos, I generally have my eyes closed. When I play orchestra, I am watching the conductor and the other basses. When I play jazz, I am split between the faces of the other musicians and the babes in the audience (scratch that!). The point is, I don&#8217;t even like looking at my music, let alone my instrument.

Robobass

Also, the recurring theme about hitting the note slightly off and quickly adjusting is just false. If you play that way you sound that way. The only way to sound in tune is to be in tune. Develop your left hand technique and aural acuity to a point where you hit every note (or at least almost every note) dead on. Until you can do that, you are just another wannabe.

 

[koricancowboy]

Also - a factor in why bass sections in orchestras sound so huge and rich is the SLIGHT variation in pitch between the instruments. Granted, out of tune sounds bad, and bass sections are notorious for it, but any groups of players on fretless instruments are not going to be PERFECTLY in tune. Leave that to the computers. Imperfection is part of personality.

I've seen the CSO, BSO and SFSO too many times to believe that to be true.

What is really "in tune" outside of 5th and octaves is a slippery slope - ask any piano tuner.

While it's true that pianos only play 5th and octaves in tune, we play instruments that can play truly in tune intervals. What your piano tuner is talking about is equal temperment, which is not in tune. It is basically a compromise. We play just intonation which can play the true frequency of notes, so one should not settle for anything else but to be as close to in tune as possible. Just my two cents.