From playing by ear to figuring out chord changes and song structures

[Trilobita]

This thread was inspired by the discussion here:

When learning a song by ear...

in short, the OP of the above post asks about how one goes about figuring a song by ear. Lots of the answers suggest that first figuring out chord progressions and then actually figuring out the bass notes is the way to go.

Now, I have read quite a few posts here on TB like the one linked above, where people ask about going from an understanding of chord progressions to figuring songs by ear, but I don't remember seeing any thread asking the opposite question - hence this thread.

I am almost a purely play-by-ear guy: I have no idea whatsoever about chord progressions or song structures when I am learning songs by ear. I just listen to the bass line and I can pretty accurately figure out what the notes are, even for somewhat complicated stuff. On the other hand, I just know that I am playing the bass this way because that is what is on the recording and that is all. I cannot elaborate: it just is what it is.

I decided that this year I wanted to fill this gap, so I am reading on chord progressions, Roman numeral analysis, chord functions etc. and I am also doing some exercises in order to better understand in practice what this is all about. I am not totally ignorant of theory, but I feel that I am more aware of how chord structures are supposed to work in theory than I actually know them in practice. More specifically, I can't seem to connect what I read in books (which nonetheless make sense to me and, from a purely intellectual point of view, I "understand" in the sense of "I can perfectly follow the logic being presented when I read or think about it", though not at all in the sense of "Thanks to what I read I can now see quite clearly what is happening in this song") with the songs that I enjoy and know how to play.

Has anybody else gone from almost strictly ear-oriented playing to understanding this sort of thing and successfully applying it to your playing as well as getting fresh insights into the stuff you already know? I would be quite interested in reading about what you have done that has yielded a musical, practical (as opposed to purely conceptual) understanding of theory, since this seems to be the gap I am trying to bridge.

Thanks!

 

[Lobster11]

I would start by looking up the chords to songs you already know -- just Google "<name of song> chords" -- and study them while you listen to the song (either a recording or just "in your head"). Once you understand the chord progression, you can do at least two other things:

(1) Analyze how the bass part relates to the chord progression. For example, in most kinds of music you'll find that the bass line hits the root note of the chord on the first beat of that chord, and other common notes in the bass line will be other chord tones (e.g., the 3rd, 5th, and maybe 7th). This would help you understand how the bass part relates to the chord progression.

(2) Annotate the chords with Roman numerals representing each chord's location within the key. Once you've done that for a bunch of songs you'll notice that how certain chords, and patterns of chords, are especially common. For example, lots of songs (especially in blues and country) follow a I-IV-V progression; many other songs add the vi or ii, etc. This would help you understand how chord progressions tend to work, and improve your ability to anticipate what might happen in a song you're hearing for the first time.

Putting the two together, you'll have a deeper insight into why familiar bass lines are what they are and why the work.

 

[LeeNunn]

Googling the chords is a great start. You might also consider buying an inexpensive keyboard to determine the chords yourself. Internet chords are not always correct. Figuring out what notes you are hearing and assigning a label to those notes is a valuable process. Don’t get too bogged down in the extensions. Getting the basic triad down is usually a good starting point, especially when the bass isn’t playing the root note. Getting in the habit of listening to the other instruments is valuable. We don’t play in a vacuum.

 

[AGCurry]

Everyone has a best way of learning. If you're academically inclined, take some courses at the local community college! It's a great deal ... one that I didn't have available when I was young.

When I started playing guitar in the late 1960s, I was a strictly-by-ear guy. There was no "online," only records and radio ... I couldn't afford sheet music and wouldn't have known where to find it anyway. I played along with the record until I got it. There were times when I could hear a chord but didn't know where to put my fingers to make that chord.

At some point, I began to realize that there were common patterns ... I, IV, V, then ii, vi, and iii. And I could hear, for example, the ii usually leads to the V, and the vi often leads to the ii. After a while, I could anticipate most of the changes in songs I'd never played before. Song structures - 12-bar blues, 16- and 32-bar standards, etc. - led me to trust my sense that, for example, "the bridge comes up here, and the tonic 7th chord leading into the bridge means that the first chord in that bridge will be IV."

I never had formal instruction in theory and harmony, but I'm now spending lots of time and energy arranging and composing all kinds of music, including choral and orchestral. I regret doing things the hard way when I was younger, but persistence got me somewhere with that way, and I'm blown away realizing what a genius Bach was.

 

[Govner22]

Learning Songs vs. Learning Music

Here’s a thread that was helpful to me when I asked a similar question. I should re-read it myself.

 

[Wasnex]

This thread was inspired by the discussion here:

When learning a song by ear...

in short, the OP of the above post asks about how one goes about figuring a song by ear. Lots of the answers suggest that first figuring out chord progressions and then actually figuring out the bass notes is the way to go.

Now, I have read quite a few posts here on TB like the one linked above, where people ask about going from an understanding of chord progressions to figuring songs by ear, but I don't remember seeing any thread asking the opposite question - hence this thread.

I am almost a purely play-by-ear guy: I have no idea whatsoever about chord progressions or song structures when I am learning songs by ear. I just listen to the bass line and I can pretty accurately figure out what the notes are, even for somewhat complicated stuff. On the other hand, I just know that I am playing the bass this way because that is what is on the recording and that is all. I cannot elaborate: it just is what it is.

I decided that this year I wanted to fill this gap, so I am reading on chord progressions, Roman numeral analysis, chord functions etc. and I am also doing some exercises in order to better understand in practice what this is all about. I am not totally ignorant of theory, but I feel that I am more aware of how chord structures are supposed to work in theory than I actually know them in practice. More specifically, I can't seem to connect what I read in books (which nonetheless make sense to me and, from a purely intellectual point of view, I "understand" in the sense of "I can perfectly follow the logic being presented when I read or think about it", though not at all in the sense of "Thanks to what I read I can now see quite clearly what is happening in this song") with the songs that I enjoy and know how to play.

Has anybody else gone from almost strictly ear-oriented playing to understanding this sort of thing and successfully applying it to your playing as well as getting fresh insights into the stuff you already know? I would be quite interested in reading about what you have done that has yielded a musical, practical (as opposed to purely conceptual) understanding of theory, since this seems to be the gap I am trying to bridge.

Thanks!

In order to do it the way you are describing, you have to instantly recognize the chord qualities and intervals of the roots by ear. Once you do this it will all start to make sense and fall into place. IMHO a lot of serious pros cannot do this.

The idea is you hear B-7, D7, AMaj7 and with just a little bit of theory you can label them ii7, V7, IMaj7. You don't necessarily need perfect pitch. You need to hear the chord qualities and the interval movement of the roots. X-7 moving up a perfect 4th to X7 moving down a perfect 4th to XMaj7. From these elements you should easily deduce ii7, V7, IMaj7, even if you don't know the precise key center.

Once you get to this point, you will start to recognize common harmonic sequences, which will make it come a lot faster. Lot's of songs have ii, V, I so this sequence becomes easy to recognize and name. You can listen here: ii–V–I progression - Wikipedia

The hang up is not all chords are functional and music does not always stay in one key. This is especially a problem with jazz. It's not unusual to come across chords that can be analyzed more than one way.

Can I do this? No. If I only need to learn the bass line, I generally listen to the song and copy the bassline note for note. Intuitively I often recognize chord qualities and can translate them from my ear to my finger. But unfortunately, I don't have the ability to consciously name the chord qualities and interval jumps, even though I often know them on an intuitive level. How well I can do this depends on how difficult the progression is. I have a hard time memorizing many jazz standards, but I often memorized 4-6 hours of various pop-oriented songs with no problems.

If I need to write out a lead sheet, I use a piano to figure out the chords. It's usually unnecessary and tedious to actually write out the full bass part. I may write out a few bars. Other than that, I write out rhythmic hits and lines that must be played exactly. For example, if the bass shares a line that is played by other instruments. I would be a bit more detailed if I was writing the lead sheet for someone else. If it's for me, I don't typically need all of the detail.

In order to develop the skill you are after, I would regularly transcribe music using a piano. Honestly I think I could do it, but it would take regular practice. It would be really helpful if my piano skills were stronger.

 

[Malcolm35]

..... Has anybody else gone from almost strictly ear-oriented playing to understanding this sort of thing and successfully applying it to your playing as well as getting fresh insights into the stuff you already know? I would be quite interested in reading about what you have done that has yielded a musical, practical (as opposed to purely conceptual) understanding of theory, since this seems to be the gap I am trying to bridge. Thanks!

Most good ole boy ear guys are glad their ear is working and very few IMO go beyond that. If it ain't broke why fix it seem to take over.

Good ole boys all have day jobs. Playing with friends and getting asked back is the motivating factor.

 

[mike buzzetti]

Learn guitar , direct application same strings lol !!

 

[Alper Yilmaz]

A typo in Wasnex’s message… I believe he meant to say “B-7, E7, AMaj7,” not “B-7, D7, AMaj7.”

The idea is you hear B-7, D7, AMaj7 and with just a little bit of theory you can label them ii7, V7, IMaj7. You don't necessarily need perfect pitch. You need to hear the chord qualities and the interval movement of the roots. X-7 moving up a perfect 4th to X7 moving down a perfect 4th to XMaj7. From these elements you should easily deduce ii7, V7, IMaj7, even if you don't know the precise key center.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Learn acoustic

 

[mike buzzetti]

Learn acoustic

your bass line is in part just an arpeggio of the chords . have fun , now learn guitar chords !

 

[Fuzzbass]

Has anybody else gone from almost strictly ear-oriented playing to understanding this sort of thing and successfully applying it to your playing as well as getting fresh insights into the stuff you already know?

As noted we all learn differently, but I'll share my experience as it might be helpful to you.

I started out on bass completely self-taught, aside from the most basic fundamentals I had picked up in grade school. Same as you, I learned almost entirely by ear. I was mainly playing hard rock and pop, and quickly recognized "box patterns", which I later learned were the pentatonic scales for major and minor. But when it came to fancier melodic bass lines that used full scales (some with additional passing tones, chromatic runs), I was guessing at the notes. I was also better at playing in the common rock keys (E, A, G, C, D) and less so in "jazz keys".

At this point I realized I was stuck in a rut. A guitarist friend recommended his teacher to me - another guitarist - so I took lessons. They weren't bass lessons per se... I suppose it was "basic intermediate" music theory: I learned all 7 modes of the diatonic scale (major, minor, plus 5 more). I also learned how to play any of those modes in any key in any position on the fretboard. This was quite an epiphany... got me out of my rut, helped me learn songs much, much faster. I was also taught beginning jazz theory -- I wasn't playing jazz so not much stuck, but it was still helpful. End result: I became a FAR more competent bassist, and exposure to those modes helped to expand my ear so I learned songs better.


Fast forward a couple of decades: I now had quite a bit of experience in cover bands playing a wide variety of genres (and also a couple of all-original bands). I started juggling multiple bands (more than just 2 or 3), and also took on sub work, which required the ability to learn songs quickly. In most cases I would already know many of the songs played by the new band so I had a head start, but I did a sub gig with an all-original band with just two weeks notice and no advance rehearsal. This was possible due to the lessons I took before, and also because I had developed a way to write "charts" for new songs, mainly for sub gigs (I put charts in quotes because they aren't chord charts; they are actually cheat sheets based on a highly simplified version of the Nashville number system).

Here's the point I want to stress: the more songs you learn, the easier it becomes to learn new songs! You start to recognize chord progressions common to many popular songs, and from there it becomes easier to learn more complicated songs.


TL;DR:

• Learning basic music theory will be a tremendous benefit to your ear. Doesn't necessarily have to come from a guitarist/bassist, but it is helpful to see that knowledge applied to the fretboard
• The more songs you learn, the easier it becomes to learn new songs (and bass lines)
  
• The ability to chart out the chords to those songs also helps you understand song structure. Also, you can keep those charts for reference in case you are asked to play them in the future

The above is just how I went about it. If you really wanted to get serious you could take formal music theory, learn to read sheet music, etc. But those weren't my goals, and may not be yours either.

 

[RJC1811]

I started on guitar so a little different. I could hear the chords and their quality, to some extent, it got better with practice. But I couldn’t understand why C, F and G? Why not C, D and E? So that led me to theory and it began to make sense but only on paper. I could comprehend what that were saying and understood it but really didn’t grasp it fully. Then we bought a piano for my daughter and my eyes were opened! There it was, literally in black and white. Being able to visualize scales on the keyboard and seeing all the chords within that scale was what my brain needed to connect the theory side of it to what I was hearing all along.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

your bass line is in part just an arpeggio of the chords . have fun , now learn guitar chords !

I'm not following

 

[mike buzzetti]

I'm not following

an arpeggio is just the notes in the chord played normally ( in sequence , not always ) by playing the notes in each chord you find the key and or Mode to play ( I play by modes 95% of the time ) , also those are always useful notes during the song .
Just a different approach , I have played gtr and bass all my life so they cross over really easily for me.

 

[Wasnex]

A typo in Wasnex’s message… I believe he meant to say “B-7, E7, AMaj7,” not “B-7, D7, AMaj7.”

Correct...thanks for the assist.

 

[mambo4]

I've often posted that fully "knowing" a musical theory concept
involves four key understandings:
1. how it sounds
2. how to play it
3. its common name(s)
4. how it's notated

The typical "ear player" or the cliche "musical genius who doesn't know any theory"
is a person who has mastered #1 and #2 and remained ignorant of #3 and #4

It sounds like now you are studying #3 ( and maybe #4)
but not referencing back to #1 and #2

In other words:
You learned C-Am-Dm-G7 is a I-vi-ii-V in C major
But you don't know what it actually sounds like
& don't know how those roots and arpeggios lay on the fret board

or the reverse:
You know by what it sounds like
how those roots and arpeggios lay on the fret board
but you don't know it's a I-vi-ii-V

play the progressions you are studying
find as many songs as possible that use them
listen until you recognize those changes easily

I "understand" in the sense of "I can perfectly follow the logic being presented when I read or think about it", though not at all in the sense of "Thanks to what I read I can now see quite clearly what is happening in this song") with the songs that I enjoy and know how to play.

I have to wonder what sort of music those songs are.
Old or simple pop music is most helpful for this.
If Jazz or Prog is your wheel house, you have your work cut out for you.
Most music is not perfectly mapped onto diatonic theory and functional roman numeral harmony

 

[mike buzzetti]

Most music is not perfectly mapped onto diatonic theory and functional roman numeral harmony

and it shouldn't be IMO !

 

[Trilobita]

Thanks to everyone who replied. I have read all the answers and the general tips are mostly things that I was considering doing or that I am already doing:

- Trying out some stuff on a guitar (I do have a guitar and I like to figure out some folk-like things I like listening to)
- Studying on a keyboard/piano (I have already done the "buy a small keyboard" part, but unfortunately haven't got around to the studying part yet)

With regard to people's effective learning methods, it is weird to notice how different thing make different people go "a-ha". A couple of days ago I started reading about figured bass notations for inversions and it was a real eye-opener to me: I have suddenly started to see chords on a guitar, whereas all I could see before was a bunch of loose notes.

As some you have suggested, I have also done some exercises in order to internalize the quality of the chords, though I have the impression that in order to learn progressions I would have to be more in the level of an entire song (or at least a full section of a song).

The thread link suggested by Govnor22 strikes a very familiar note - it is a very accurate description of the place where I feel I am at.

As for the "analyze the stuff you know" part, I fell that Mike Buzzetti and Mambo4 might have made relevant comments: I am not a rock 'n' roll or a pop guy, but more of a metal and prog/post-metal guy. For reference, here are three recent songs I am currently practicing and/or transcribing that "I enjoy and know how to play" (as per Mambo4's request) and that I would like to be able to understand in more detail than "I know how this goes":







I have a pretty strong suspicion that they do not tend towards the "I-IV-V-I" side of things (the Virus track sounds particularly weird), and if that is indeed the case I should probably start analyzing simpler stuff and come back to understand these at a later stage. Since the instrument doesn't really matter here, maybe I would be better off if I started by transcribing and analyzing far simpler stuff that I also know how to (badly) play on a guitar.

Thanks everyone for your input and feel free to contribute further if you feel so inclined - I will keep reading all answers to this thread.

 

[mambo4]

I have a pretty strong suspicion that they do not tend towards the "I-IV-V-I" side of things (the Virus track sounds particularly weird), and if that is indeed the case I should probably start analyzing simpler stuff and come back to understand these at a later stage.

Agreed!
Those examples are some really neat stuff
Definitely outside your typical pop progressions
I suggest you look into harmonizing minor modes like aeolian , Phrygian and Locrian.