Frustrated (maybe even done?) with transcription.

[nonohmic]

I've been trying for years to better my ear and do what the greats tell us to do, which is to transcribe. But I'm seeing no improvement at all, and it's getting rather demoralizing.

Sometimes I'll nail it, but only like 1 out of 5 tries. The rest I'll think I have it, but then I'll go to a .pdf transcription and realize I'm way off. Sometimes I'll even play the 'real' line and be like yeah that sounds nothing like what I was hearing. I think perhaps I just don't have those synapses in my brain firing like someone that can properly do it.

For instance I figured out Rocco Palladino's intro/hook line on Tioga Pass, but then I tried to transcribe a jazz solo and just bricked it. Even if i use a slowdowner bebop lines still sound like random collections of notes half the time. I love the technical aspect of that stuff tho, so I'm frustrated that the ear is so far behind.

I try what everyone says too, which is to listen to it first until you can sing it before picking up the instrument. But there's still a disconnect when I go to figure it out. Also listening to things ad nauseum like that isn't that enjoyable tbh.

Maybe I should just read things and play, and let the ear develop naturally. Cause yeah frustrated. Any insight is appreciated, but really just needed a place to rant cause my wife sure as hell doesn't care

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

I bought "Better Ears in 30 Days" by Danny Ziemann and it totally improved my ear and ability to transcribe.
I went from total frustration and inability to even nail 4 measures of Paul Chambers to being able to do passable transcriptionof s several tunes.
Well worth the money - it's inexpensive - and effort - I did like 30 mins a day, and it really helped a ton.
PS - I don't like Danny's marketing, but the Better Ears book really really helped me.

 

[nonohmic]

I bought "Better Ears in 30 Days" by Danny Ziemann and it totally improved my ear and ability to transcribe.
I went from total frustration and inability to even nail 4 measures of Paul Chambers to being able to do passable transcriptionof s several tunes.
Well worth the money - it's inexpensive - and effort - I did like 30 mins a day, and it really helped a ton.
PS - I don't like Danny's marketing, but the Better Ears book really really helped me.

Awesome thanks. I'll look into that.

And then if that doesn't work, then I'll give up

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Awesome thanks. I'll look into that.

And then if that doesn't work, then I'll give up

Good luck!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

but then I'll go to a .pdf transcription and realize I'm way off.

What's that "a .pdf transcription?"
Is it somebody that, maybe, interpreted the bass line incorrectly?

I'll even play the 'real' line and be like yeah that sounds nothing like what I was hearing

There is a difference between playing and transcribing...

Rocco Palladino's intro/hook line on Tioga Pass, but then I tried to transcribe a jazz solo and just bricked it.

I would start with a simpler bass-line for sure.

listen to it first until you can sing it before picking up the instrument.

Once again, start with a simple bass line!

 

[KenD]

My $0.02 which may be so off the wall that I qualify for a small padded room

Unless you're playing a song for which the original bass line is so iconic that it's a necessary part of the song, or unless a musical director drops a chart in front of you and says, "Here, play this" then otherwise, who cares? Interpret the song in a way that sounds and feels "right" for you and that fits with whatever situation you're playing in. For example, for any given song I would play a very different bass line in an ensemble with drums, guitar, B3 and horn section than I would for that same song with a 3 piece trio.

Most certainly we can learn from the lines, figures, techniques, etc. of the "greats" but IMO we should learn those parts and adapt them into our own way of playing, rather than mimicing.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

My $0.02 which may be so off the wall that I qualify for a small padded room

Unless you're playing a song for which the original bass line is so iconic that it's a necessary part of the song, or unless a musical director drops a chart in front of you and says, "Here, play this" then otherwise, who cares? Interpret the song in a way that sounds and feels "right" for you and that fits with whatever situation you're playing in. For example, for any given song I would play a very different bass line in an ensemble with drums, guitar, B3 and horn section than I would for that same song with a 3 piece trio.

Most certainly we can learn from the lines, figures, techniques, etc. of the "greats" but IMO we should learn those parts and adapt them into our own way of playing, rather than mimicing.

That last sentence pretty much summarizes the primary reason people transcribe and teachers make students transcribe.

 

[mambo4]

What is your actual transcription process like?
If you are frustrated you may be excluding useful approaches.

I posted my usual approach a few years back , in another transcribing thread

I'll copy/paste it here:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't transcribe for educational value, usually I'm trying out for an original band and I need to get their material down.
Depending on the complexity of the song, and how specific the bass line needs to be it takes me anywhere from 10-30 minutes.
(These are fairly typical pop songs...) My transcriptions are not note-for note, but I end up with a chart that I find useful.

My process is like this:
I plug my iPod [ edit: iPhone these days ] into my headphone amp.
I have blank staff paper pre marked with 4 or 8 bars to the line.

I generally work in 4 passes:

1.) first outline the song structure:
I listen to the song and write numbers down for each chord change,
-these are not 'nashville numbers' or I-iv-IV-V chord symbols. I'm just
making a note of when the changes occur
if I think hear the same chord again I use the same number.
when a chorus/verse/solo happens I glance at my iPod and note the time.
-very helpful
I mark repeats as I come across them.
If there are extra ninja bars for filler between sections, I usually
mark them with a + as a reminder

2.)second, identify chords/ root notes
Freed from concerns about structure, I play along and find the roots
and note the chords
I noticed I often use 'nashville numbers' at this point, because its
easier to identify intervals than actual pitch names.

[Edit : if I'm gathering material for a covers gig, and the chord progression is not obvious
I will shortcut and google the chords. ]


3.)rhythms for parts
Using actual music notes, w/ out worrying about pitch, I make a brief
note of the basic rhythm for each section

4.) specific passages (if needed)
finally, I identify specific phrases that I think ought to be nailed
precisely, usually turnarounds and transitions.
I can't sight read these, so its more to remind me me how they go.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[thehindteet]

I think that one of the traps players fall into is that they have enough awareness of a thing to know that it's widely thought of as having virtue, but their picture of why the thing is important is not clear enough to know how to what the real purpose of doing it is and how to use it. I definitely struggled with this and it really wasn't until I was studying with somebody who was really methodical about when and why to transcribe that I finally learned how to use transcription as a real tool.

The tell for me that this is the problem you're facing is this line: "For instance I figured out Rocco Palladino's intro/hook line on Tioga Pass, but then I tried to transcribe a jazz solo and just bricked it". Although I transcribe just about anything I hear that I like, the situation where transcription is really valuable is when you are transcribing in preparation for performance. So for example if I have a gig coming up playing standards and they show me the list of tunes they play and I see some that I haven't played before or just don't know very well, the first thing I do is check out a bunch of recordings of those tunes until I find some that I like a lot. I don't always learn to play the head but I always give it a try; I'm generally never going to play it on the gig but if I can play it on the bass, having it under your fingers is kind of like taking a few trips around the track before you go racing. Then I transcribe several choruses of the line on the recording, I don't need to memorize the entire thing, but memorizing a recorded line burns the changes into your head, and it gives you some seed material for when you actually play the tune.

Often when you play a tune with real people for the first time, they have a totally different idea of the feel and tempo and if it doesn't sound like what you've been practicing over, its easy to get sort of iced-out and not be able to improvise a line. But by transcribing a few different lines that you like, during those moments where you are not hearing ideas of what to play in your head, you sort of fall back on some of the phrases that you internalized while you were transcribing. As you get more comfortable with the way the group is playing the tune, your own ideas will start to come and you weave those into your playing as well.

The reason that the line I quoted stuck out to me is that it sounds like you were just picking some stuff at random, trying to write out the notation while you were transcribing, and then figuring out whether your notation was correct. Sometimes the accuracy of a notated transcription has some importance, like if you transcribed a horn solo in order to analyze it against the changes, you might be stumped trying to figure out the function of some note in a line if you wrote the wrong note. But if you're transcribing other lines of a tune you're going to play, the accuracy doesn't really matter that much because presumably the note you identified was the one you thought sounded right, and that's all down to taste.

So I guess what I'd say is that if you're just transcribing stuff for the sake of doing it, just picking stuff at random, nothing magical is going to happen with your playing, other than the basic benefits of playing a little bit every day. On the other hand if you are going to be playing a standard on a gig next week and you have transcribed a bunch of lines and some solos over that tune, you will be way more ready to play that song. That's the reason people hype transcription so much; if you just show up with a fake book and try to invent stuff on the spot it'll be obvious, but if you have really been listening to a lot of versions of the song its almost impossible not to sound good.

 

[KenD]

That last sentence pretty much summarizes the primary reason people transcribe and teachers make students trancribe.

Individual parts, figures, techniques, not mimicing entire songs.

 

[Dr. Turkey]

Curious: is your ear training limited to transcribing songs by ears or do you do relative pitch training as well to improve interval recognition? It might make those random collections of notes sound less random.

 

[Wasnex]

I've been trying for years to better my ear and do what the greats tell us to do, which is to transcribe. But I'm seeing no improvement at all, and it's getting rather demoralizing.

Sometimes I'll nail it, but only like 1 out of 5 tries. The rest I'll think I have it, but then I'll go to a .pdf transcription and realize I'm way off. Sometimes I'll even play the 'real' line and be like yeah that sounds nothing like what I was hearing. I think perhaps I just don't have those synapses in my brain firing like someone that can properly do it.

For instance I figured out Rocco Palladino's intro/hook line on Tioga Pass, but then I tried to transcribe a jazz solo and just bricked it. Even if i use a slowdowner bebop lines still sound like random collections of notes half the time. I love the technical aspect of that stuff tho, so I'm frustrated that the ear is so far behind.

I try what everyone says too, which is to listen to it first until you can sing it before picking up the instrument. But there's still a disconnect when I go to figure it out. Also listening to things ad nauseum like that isn't that enjoyable tbh.

Maybe I should just read things and play, and let the ear develop naturally. Cause yeah frustrated. Any insight is appreciated, but really just needed a place to rant cause my wife sure as hell doesn't care

What's the rush. If you want to get better, proceed at your own pace and level.

I never did much true transcribing...as in actually writing it down. I used to do lots of record lifts of bass parts though. There are parts I figured out when I was kid that I would not have the patience to figure out now. I actually played in a university big band while I was in high school...long before I understand basic theory or how to read chord notation. The professor gave me the music and recordings, and I pretty much learned the songs note for note well enough for us to rehearse and perform. Not way I could learn full shows like that now...but I no longer have to.

AFAIK there are lot's of aspects of ear training. As a music major our ear training involved dictation as well as singing solfege. Of course we were also immersed in studying music theory and required to take class piano. I worked up my theory assignments on piano...IMHO proficiency on piano is very helpful with transcription.

Unfortunately I had to drop out after 3rd semester. At the time I felt like I was getting to the point where I could almost visualize what was going on harmonically, and also nearing a break through with relative pitch.

I eventually wound up being a pro military musician, but never achieved the break throughs I once expected. My guess is my on-the-job training did not sufficiently immerse me in some of the facets required for the break throughs to occur. In school I related almost everything to piano first. On the job I focused primarily on the bass and eventually pretty much abandoned the piano.

So maybe you need to broaden your field of study somewhat to achieve the desired success. Or maybe you need to expand into transcribing full pieces of music, as well as arranging and composing.

 

[Chris Wilke]

It's tough, for sure. Sometimes its difficult to admit to where we are at especially if we have been playing a while and having success in other areas. One thing I would try is more learning of written transcriptions, memorizing them if possible, or at least pieces of them. Then analyzing why the notes are where they are. Then, you may start to recognize entire figures instead of trying to hear all the notes.

Works for me.... sometimes.

 

[Bass Motifs]

I find that what I can sing marks the limits of what I can transcribe (vocal technique aside...). Unless it's a pattern or figure i already recognize.

Sounds dumb, but the Interstate Love Song riff threw me until i sang it out (humming really) and picked that it started on the minor seventh. More commonly known as the Star Trek interval if you did music at school.

It's fun to practice improving your ear training, but I've also learnt to be forgiving of myself when frustrated. Little bit at a time.

 

[Bass Motifs]

Argghhh this just popped into my feed, is TB spying on me?

 

[nonohmic]

Then, you may start to recognize entire figures instead of trying to hear all the notes.

This sounds great, and hope I can get there eventually.

Curious: is your ear training limited to transcribing songs by ears or do you do relative pitch training as well to improve interval recognition? It might make those random collections of notes sound less random.

I tried interval training for years as well, and also really didn't see any improvement. That's why I decided to move to just trying to pick up lines by ear directly, as figured at least that's not boring as hell like interval training.

I think as others have said, patience is key. And I am not a patient man. The stuff I want to play is apparently far too technical for my ear, so perhaps I need to not try and marry the two quite yet, and work on some more simple stuff for transcription.

 

[MuseChaser]

If you haven't or aren't already, study harmony and theory, and learn to recognize chord qualities by ear. A deep knowledge of chord construction REALLY helps one with the task of transcription, and knowing what a given chord or chord progression is gives you a basis of expectation of what melody notes are most likely to be used.

When I transcribe stuff, I never worry about getting it right the first time ...just put down some approximation of what you hear, even if it's just kind of an up-and-down contour of the line with a few obvious pitches filled in. With each subsequent listen, you'll begin to hear how those obvious notes are approached or left, and you can sketch in a few more details. Wash, rinse, repeat. Keep track of the measures/downbeats to make sure your rhythm is correct, and of the chord progression to make sure your transcribed notes make sense stylistically. Of course, play along and sing along while you look at your progressing transcription; errors will be apparent, and the corrections needed will become increasingly obvious.

I've done the bulk of my "lifting" transcribing jazz quintet and sextet arrangements from vinyl LPs....no "slowdowners," loops, or other tech helpers. The more you know about theory and composition, and the more you do it, the easier and more fun it gets.

 

[mambo4]

I'll think I have it, but then I'll go to a .pdf transcription and realize I'm way off....

I try what everyone says too, which is to listen to it first until you can sing it before picking up the instrument. But there's still a disconnect when I go to figure it out.

Can you analyze this disconnect more closely to identify what goes wrong?
Are your errors consistent?
Are the notes correct but the rhythm wrong?
OR the rhythm correct but the notes wrong?
is there a more specific identifiable, actionable weakness you could address?

I tried interval training for years as well, and also really didn't see any improvement.

How's your ear for common chord progressions? Can you recognize a I- vi -ii -V when you hear it?
In my experience , ear training for common chord progressions is both easier and more useful than intervals or static harmony ear training
( and absent from my college theory classes )

You need to see these failures as opportunities to dig into why an how you are getting it wrong
Might be a good idea to take your transcriptions to a competent, literate player who can help check your work and your approach

 

[mambo4]

I never worry about getting it right the first time ...just put down some approximation of what you hear, even if it's just kind of an up-and-down contour of the line with a few obvious pitches filled in. With each subsequent listen, you'll begin to hear how those obvious notes are approached or left, and you can sketch in a few more details.

+1
Unless you're distributing arrangements, it don't need to be precise.
The real purpose is to grasp the structure of the music well enough to add ideas to your vocabulary.

It's not simply hearing notes & rhythm and jotting them down correctly.
Those who transcribe easily are bringing a whole bucket of knowledge to bear:
Scales, arpeggios, theory, common chord progressions, stylistic & repertoire memory, AABA song structures, and so on.
Getting the notes and rhythm exact is more like a final polish pass

 

[logdrum]

I am assuming this is jazz. Lots of wiggle room.

Classical musicians , are expected to read as close as possible, but many of them also have a hard time transcribing jazz solos by ear. I have direct experience on this