Double Bass Full score

[Enzo]

This is more of an observation than a question however I have found that, when learning a piece of orchestral music, having a full score to look at is very helpful in understanding when the bass part comes in, particularly after long pauses or more intricate short passages and indeed even understand tempo marking!
( I may be discovering hot water here, but it has helped me a lot!)

 

[SVT4001]

Enzo,

No "hot water" that I can imagine here- nothing but a great idea! I have a bookshelf full of study scores for just this purpose. Scores are available in many places- book stores (new and used), libraries and even online.

The only problem with scores is all that page turning!

Thanks for sharing!

Joe

 

[fergus currie]

Last year I did Mahler 3 playing extra in the Athens Municipal Symphony Orchestra. I was no6 in a section of eight and I was the only player on this side of the orchestra with a pocket score. It soon became known that there was a score floating around in the band and before long everyone wanted to check what the others were playing. The second oboe wanted to see where the horns came in and the back desk of the celli wanted to see where the tuba stopped etc. This became a niusance and I ralrely got to see my pocket score by the third rehearsal.

It can be useful tool but copy the information you need into your part (like cues and guides) and work from that. Do your homework and you cann relax in the rehearsal more.
FC

 

[bejoyous]

This is a definite plus activity to learning the music. Often music is a dialogue between the bass line and the melody line with the other parts providing colour and setting an accompaniment style.

It's a good way to find out who you are supposed to be rhythmically locked in with, as well. Sometimes with the low brass, sometimes with the bassoons, sometimes with the percussion, etc.

When it comes time to play with the orchestra, the various parts you've studied really stand out and are not just a sonic wash in the background.

When working on an orchestral excepts, I often multi-track the other parts into an electronic keyboard so I can play along and really nail the intonation and correct rhythm.

 

[Rob Thompson]

Last year I did Mahler 3 playing extra in the Athens Municipal Symphony Orchestra. I was no6 in a section of eight and I was the only player on this side of the orchestra with a pocket score. It soon became known that there was a score floating around in the band and before long everyone wanted to check what the others were playing. The second oboe wanted to see where the horns came in and the back desk of the celli wanted to see where the tuba stopped etc. This became a niusance and I ralrely got to see my pocket score by the third rehearsal.

It can be useful tool but copy the information you need into your part (like cues and guides) and work from that. Do your homework and you cann relax in the rehearsal more.
FC

I also did Mahler 3 recently and carried the pocket score with me to rehearsals. The vastness of Mahler 3 almost requires it....

I've had the privilege of playing with the principal bass of my local major orchestra many times, and he often seems to have a score open on the chair next to him.

 

[iiipopes]

Not in an orchestral context, but in other contexts, I have been known to take the full score and add, in "cued notes" to my part, the appropriate exerpts of the principal motifs/melodies/transitions, etc., so it would help me "read" the conductor properly and to help with measure counting and make sure I made my next entrance properly. It is always a great idea to study what others are doing with a particular piece, the better to give a proper foundation as required.

 

[fergus currie]

I just read my post. I have to stop posting on TB while I'm drunk.
FC

 

[Blakewdm]

I too have also played Mahler 3 recently,i actually brought 3 scores

 

[Rob Thompson]

I too have also played Mahler 3 recently,i actually brought 3 scores

Scores for Mahler 1, 2 and 3? Just to, you know, fully appreciate the historical development of the interplay between 5th and 7th horn part while cueing up for some wicked runs of 13-tuples?

 

[fergus currie]

Scores for Mahler 1, 2 and 3? Just to, you know, fully appreciate the historical development of the interplay between 5th and 7th horn part while cueing up for some wicked runs of 13-tuples?

So you don't jump in on the flute upbeat in the slow movement. actually.... It's helped me in the opera where I now work too. Singers always take liberties and its nice to know if they have an upbeat or a difficult run so you can be with them.

 

[MartinBorgen]

So you don't jump in on the flute upbeat in the slow movement. actually.... It's helped me in the opera where I now work too. Singers always take liberties and its nice to know if they have an upbeat or a difficult run so you can be with them.

Not to be sneesy, but isn't that what the conductor is there for? I mean, even if you play it perfectly right with the singer, so what if the rest of the orchestra doesn't?

 

[fergus currie]

you have to make a judgement value descision on who to follow; the conductor, the leader, the singer the principal bass etc. This is not easy but you have to develope a philosophy of how these people think and use that all the time to be together. Knowing the score helps define this philosophy. I play No. 2 in the Greek National Opera and I'm pretty good at placing my pizzicattos with the principal, not because I follow him blindly parrot fashion but because I know how he thinks, musically. I can usually get pizzes after a big ritenuto bang on without even looking at the principal or the conductor. You just get a better feel if you know what's in the score. That doesn't mean you shouldn't follow and watch, it just means that you are liberated because you now have more information which means better choices and ultimately better music making.

Listen to 'Elucevan L'Estele' From Tosca with the score open and you can see how elastic it is. No amount of counting and watching can give you exactly the right timing for the low A pizz here. You have to know what the singer has and what he's going to do with it.

FC

 

[MartinBorgen]

you have to make a judgement value descision on who to follow; the conductor, the leader, the singer the principal bass etc. This is not easy but you have to develope a philosophy of how these people think and use that all the time to be together. Knowing the score helps define this philosophy. I play No. 2 in the Greek National Opera and I'm pretty good at placing my pizzicattos with the principal, not because I follow him blindly parrot fashion but because I know how he thinks, musically. I can usually get pizzes after a big ritenuto bang on without even looking at the principal or the conductor. You just get a better feel if you know what's in the score. That doesn't mean you shouldn't follow and watch, it just means that you are liberated because you now have more information which means better choices and ultimately better music making.

Listen to 'Elucevan L'Estele' From Tosca with the score open and you can see how elastic it is. No amount of counting and watching can give you exactly the right timing for the low A pizz here. You have to know what the singer has and what he's going to do with it.

FC

As you play at an opera, I will do a comparison to the relationship between the stage technicians and the general stage manager. No matter how sure the technicians are when they are supposed to do something, it's a death penalty if you don't do it on the signal from the stage manager. You can't be doing things on your own when you are part of a huge team.

Similarly, I was implying that if the whole orchestra does the same thing wrong, and you're the only one playing right, you will be more wrong than everyone else.

As a player in the Greek national opera, I'm sure that you know (better than me) what I meant, and I understand what you mean. There's definitely an advantage in knowing how the piece is composed - in my theory, when an orchestra learns a piece, it's usually because the musicians learn what to listen to, which essentially is what you're suggesting but in a different (and perhaps quicker) way.

 

[fergus currie]

In my experience the most audible mistakes are actually made by the conductor. This sounds odd but think about it. Maybe you have lived through this too:

The conductor wants the music to move on so he starts to make some gestures, getting ahead of the orchestra himself. One second flute or third trombone for example tries to keep up with him while the rest of the orchestra will pick up the pace by following the leaders reaction to these gestures. The result is a disaster.

The basses have a soli passage (end of Act 1 in Cavaleria Rusticana for example) the principle bass gives the cue but the conductor wants it to go a bit faster so he turns into a windmill. The back desk spot this and try to go with the conductor while the front players are focused on the principal. The result is a disaster.

The leader of the orchestra has a solo (Merry widow Duetto No 15) and the basses have to put that pizzicato right on his nose. The conductor tries to cue the basses but his getures are just getting in the way and someone jumps the gun. the result is a disaster.

Music is about sound and if you can hear things you've prepared for by reading the score then (tempered with an understanding of how other players think) you sould be fine.

It always impresses me how well orchestras play when the conductor goes into the hall to hear what the orchestra sound like. It's always better that when they are up there jupming around. Then he comes back to the podium and everyone goes back to trying to interpret his getures and forget about listening and thinking and watching each other.

I know that a machine only works if all the parts work correctly but in an orchestra each part has a brain and must underatand 'why' it works correctly too. I'm not advocating abandoning blindly following principal players but rather trying to understand why they play the way they do and adopting that philosophy if you can will give you a better chance to be together that just mechanically following.

I find that with an eight man section if all they do is follow the principal, by the time the message gets to number eight the front desk is in the next bar. This of course is another story and having the score does not help here. The score helps you from not jumping in much more that being late on the beat. That need the thinking and watching and listening all at once.

Finishing with the stage manager analogy; the stage hand acts after the signal - the hand waves and then the sandbag drops. An orchestral section must act together not after the signal. It helps if the pricipal can lead with his body language and if the conductor is clear and there is a common ideology among the players, but waiting for signals (headnods, arm-twitches, intakes of breath, etc.) is counter-musical and prone to flamming pizzicatos because each player in the section interprets body movements differently but musical sounds nearly always the same.

Anyway I babble as usual, The upshot is you need both approaches to be completely in harmony to be that ideal tutti player. (how may times in auditions do we hear the phrase, "Yes, but he was playing the most musically of all.." ? And how rarely do we hear the phrase, "Yes, but he was playing the most mechanically of all.." ?

Food for thought here, both in and out of the orchestra...

FC

 

[MartinBorgen]

of course, I realize that my stage manager analogy wasn't quite accurate as the stage doesen't have the same timing requirements as the orchestra.

It's similar to how I noticed the differece from when I play electric bass in a symphonic band vs a string ensemble. In the symphonic band, there is almost always a clear beat, and I follow in the movements of the conductor to land the notes at exactly the instant her movement hits the "bottom", but I remember when I first played in the string ensemble how the whole orchestra was lagging behind the conductor all the time, always waiting for the conducor or the principal, etc.

 

[fergus currie]

The GNO play so far behind the beat that conductors get phased when they first come here. This happens with string bands a lot too as you say.
Horses for courses...
FC

 

[Witjas]

In my experience the most audible mistakes are actually made by the conductor. This sounds odd but think about it. Maybe you have lived through this too:

The conductor wants the music to move on so he starts to make some gestures, getting ahead of the orchestra himself. One second flute or third trombone for example tries to keep up with him while the rest of the orchestra will pick up the pace by following the leaders reaction to these gestures. The result is a disaster.

The basses have a soli passage (end of Act 1 in Cavaleria Rusticana for example) the principle bass gives the cue but the conductor wants it to go a bit faster so he turns into a windmill. The back desk spot this and try to go with the conductor while the front players are focused on the principal. The result is a disaster.

The leader of the orchestra has a solo (Merry widow Duetto No 15) and the basses have to put that pizzicato right on his nose. The conductor tries to cue the basses but his getures are just getting in the way and someone jumps the gun. the result is a disaster.

Music is about sound and if you can hear things you've prepared for by reading the score then (tempered with an understanding of how other players think) you sould be fine.

It always impresses me how well orchestras play when the conductor goes into the hall to hear what the orchestra sound like. It's always better that when they are up there jupming around. Then he comes back to the podium and everyone goes back to trying to interpret his getures and forget about listening and thinking and watching each other.

I know that a machine only works if all the parts work correctly but in an orchestra each part has a brain and must underatand 'why' it works correctly too. I'm not advocating abandoning blindly following principal players but rather trying to understand why they play the way they do and adopting that philosophy if you can will give you a better chance to be together that just mechanically following.

I find that with an eight man section if all they do is follow the principal, by the time the message gets to number eight the front desk is in the next bar. This of course is another story and having the score does not help here. The score helps you from not jumping in much more that being late on the beat. That need the thinking and watching and listening all at once.

Finishing with the stage manager analogy; the stage hand acts after the signal - the hand waves and then the sandbag drops. An orchestral section must act together not after the signal. It helps if the pricipal can lead with his body language and if the conductor is clear and there is a common ideology among the players, but waiting for signals (headnods, arm-twitches, intakes of breath, etc.) is counter-musical and prone to flamming pizzicatos because each player in the section interprets body movements differently but musical sounds nearly always the same.

Anyway I babble as usual, The upshot is you need both approaches to be completely in harmony to be that ideal tutti player. (how may times in auditions do we hear the phrase, "Yes, but he was playing the most musically of all.." ? And how rarely do we hear the phrase, "Yes, but he was playing the most mechanically of all.." ?

Food for thought here, both in and out of the orchestra...

FC

The windmill analogy really had me in stitches. So true. Great post!!

 

[MartinBorgen]

This satrurday, I saw the (Swedish) Radio Philharmonics play Brahms 2nd symphony, and I particularly noticed how during the rather pizzicatto-ish part, the conductor merly gave one bar or less to get the train started, then he just gave the different sections their cues and kept the "train on track" until the bows came back. Naturally, if you have a solid orchestra, giving the beat during a particularly rythmic part is just cosmetics and a source for confusion.

 

[Anon2962]

conductor turns into a windmill...one second flute or third trombone for example tries to keep up with him while the rest of the orchestra will pick up the pace by following the leaders reaction to these gestures. The result is a disaster.

...
Music is about sound ...

I think that your last statement, music is about sound, is by far the most important when dealing with these very awkward moments.

Seeing the conductor panic should ideally not make the orchestra do likewise - he goes into windmill mode, ok, he's giving the signal to pick up the tempo. he's probably not wanting the tempo to suddenly jump to catch up with him, like a scratched cd, so it's up to the musicians to- very quickly- decide what to do, and somehow do it as a unit. these very difficult moments are where every musician in the orchestra is tested, and i find it really interesting to discuss.

It all happens in a few seconds but here's how i think about it in super slow-motion.

Seems as how the conductor's gestures in these first few moments really only indicate 'play faster, i'm panicking, help!', for me, the players must in the first place go with what is being played around them - putting their notes into the correct place as they (and the audience) hear/feel them. Otherwise the danger of random early entries is even further increased. At the same time they must remain very flexible and highly aware of signals coming from the within the orchestra (section leaders)

It is up to the leaders to start the forward motion, and bring their individual sections (hopefully) along. If the orchestra know the score enough, they'll know which section's entry are most important for setting the tempo, and the whole job becomes easier. (see how i brought that right back on topic? nice)

so yes, i think knowing the score is vital for the orchestra. This way a good orchestra will still sound like a good orchestra, even with a terrible conductor.

Also, as a general point, not knowing the full score of a piece you are playing as a soloist is terrible, but i think you really have to know whats going on in the orchestra too. if you just look at the bass part it's like looking at a painting but removing everything except shades of brown (or whatever other colour you like!)

 

[robobass]

you have to make a judgement value descision on who to follow; the conductor, the leader, the singer the principal bass etc. This is not easy but you have to develope a philosophy of how these people think and use that all the time to be together. Knowing the score helps define this philosophy. I play No. 2 in the Greek National Opera and I'm pretty good at placing my pizzicattos with the principal, not because I follow him blindly parrot fashion but because I know how he thinks, musically. I can usually get pizzes after a big ritenuto bang on without even looking at the principal or the conductor. You just get a better feel if you know what's in the score. That doesn't mean you shouldn't follow and watch, it just means that you are liberated because you now have more information which means better choices and ultimately better music making.

Listen to 'Elucevan L'Estele' From Tosca with the score open and you can see how elastic it is. No amount of counting and watching can give you exactly the right timing for the low A pizz here. You have to know what the singer has and what he's going to do with it.

FC

Oh my. This is almost blasphemy to say out loud. I would add that the conductor has a lot to do. IME there are minor disasters going on almost constantly during an opera performance, and the trick is to make sure that no one notices. The more the bass section can get the job done by listening, knowing and understanding the music, and intuition, the more the conductor can focus on the little problems which crop up.