General loudness

[georgestrings]

Musicians complaining that they hate loud music is like a wine or liqour connoisseur complaining that they hate feeling the slightest bit drunk.

If you want low peforming volumes for your nice soft jazz combo, fine. Not everybody is a pansy, though.

No doubt - I thought I was reading the posts of a couple of old women there for a minute - and most certainly not those of rock bassists... The audience I play for expects to not be able to talk up by the stage - we're not rediculously loud, but it IS rock music - it's not supposed to be quiet...



- georgestrings

 

[two fingers]

It gets pretty bad sometimes. I find that keyboard players are the worst (I know, you guys are all about slamming guitards for volume). Usually (in my experience) it's ONE person on stage who drives the volume up and there's really nothing you can do about it. The guy who wants it so loud is also usually the most sensitive about his feelings. If you say anything to him about volume, he will cry. I put plugs in. 23 years of line music and I can still hear a pin drop.

 

[JimmyM]

The only times I don't like music a little on the loud side is when they overdrive the PA and make it sound like poopycaca, or when someone is way out of balance with the rest of the mix. Otherwise I'm all for it if that's what the audience expects. If I went to see AC/DC and the bass drum didn't simulate a heart attack, I would be pissed. Not every band should play at Disney volumes. Don't like it? Don't go see them.

 

[daystcity]

Feeling the rythm (with plugs), is awesome. I love concerts because of the atmosphere, that includes the volume. YMMV but there are some bands (not all by a long shot) that really do sound(feel?) better loud. It's just right for it to be blasting, that's part of the sound they want. They write their stuff to be played that way, it sounds that way. Loud has a different timbre than soft, for some it's a very important part of what they do. Earplugs don't diminish it very much IMO and it's a good practice to use, but the fact of the matter is that rock music is music, it has its dynamics like anything else, to get the feel across they play at the volume they deem necessary. That is all.

 

[mntngrown]

Yeah, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there...Have you ever been to a Who gig?

It's rock. It's suposed to be loud. Exactly how loud is a relative matter to be agreed upon (hopefully) by the creators - which is you and your band mates. Every guitard in the world thinks he can't get "his tone" unless those tubes are fully saturated and glowing bright blue. (OK, not "every" one, just 99% of them.)

Yes, there is good logic to keeping your stage volume as low as possible. That's dictated mostly by how loud your drummer plays. You have to be loud enough to hear the other instruments from the other side of the stage - as well as yourself. The quietest way to do this is to put everything in the monitors - especially if you're using in-ear monitors. The loudest way to do this is to just use your amps without any reinforcement in the monitors.

There are many good reasons to keep your stage volume as low as possible - and to use hearing protection. But DAMN, it sure sounds better loud to most of us, doesn't it?

Did you ever try to play "My Generation" or "The Kids Are All Right" at a "reasonable volume"? It hurts - kinda like holding in gas when you're at church. IMHO

Yes I saw them at the Filmore SF in about '65 and Keith Moon knocked most of the drumset off the stage at the finale and Pete Townsend destroyed a Fender and my ears rang for days not just one day and I slowly decided I liked the bands that were quieter and enjoyed the openers like The Santana blues band and Albert King more than the eardrum piercing cavalcade of stars like Cream and many others. Clapton plays at sane volume now as do many vets. I wear my filters at rehearsals and some gigs and only have mild tinitus which is better than many fairly deaf older rock musicians I have met. As a consumer I go outside and listen if I forgot my filters and the band or soundman are being ridiculous with the volume. You will ultimately pay the price in most cases for extreme exposures.

 

[ttomom]

It's rock'n'roll! There's a great visceral excitement that comes with overwhelming volume. People want to feel the music in their chest, and moving their clothes. It's moving and emotional, especially with rhythm.

Who wants this more than musicians?

as a (so-called) musician that is how I feel... if I cant feel the power of the music through good tone and volume then I am not moved...the tone, volume, groove gets me going and I play better when all that is good... more emotional than technical for me

 

[JimmyM]

Just to add on to what I said earlier, even though I like blasting some rock at a loud volume, I have to add that I think there are a lot of musicians who play at absolutely ridiculous volumes and see nothing wrong with it. Bass players especially don't get how loud they are sometimes. And in a small place you get diminishing returns on a too-loud volume really quickly.

 

[konodl18]

After 3 years of regular gigging I am making the move to ear plugs. I thought we were doing a good job of keeping the volume down on stage and we're getting by with minimal volume from vocal wedges. But after a few nights with serious ringing in my ears (mostly from drums and cymbals* small stages*) I am taking the hearing thing seriously. No more pissing around, I don't want to go deaf and now i'm going to do something about it . Can't afford IEM's so we'll have to bring wedges up to match the drums and use flat attenuation ear plugs to bring all down.

Loud music is great! But just how loud is very subject...

 

[ih388]

having just read through this thread it seems to me that some guys love rock music and love it loud and some guys like different music and don't want it too loud. For me it is the former.

I've seen hundreds of bands over the last 25 years mainly rock and metal but not exclusively. Nothing feels better than the excitement you get from hearing the music you love played live in front of you and that includes the pounding in your chest or feeling your clothes moved by the music.

The most disappointing gig I've been to in the last few years was a stadium gig by Iron Maiden which may have sounded great to some sounded awful from up in the stands. I'd also seen them twice in the preceeding couple of years when they'd rocked on both occasions.

 

[Bochafish]

To me, some music just sounds better loud. There is a point where it is overkill though. My ears rang for days after Metallica in '94, great show but a little too loud. Blind Melon - Blind Melon is a good example of an album that just sounds better loud for some reason. IMO of course.

 

[konodl18]

Another point that I haven't seen mentioned-- I've noticed at the bar and club level, It is easy to get the volume to a point where even with good gear, (ie. no distortion) its so loud that the human ear begins to wash out. The perfect mix you put together at the console can no longer be distinguished or picked apart by the human ear.

It's just, loud... Not good, just Loud.

Once the crowd's ears get fatigued, they are going to hear the mix differently as the night goes on. Very counter-productive.

 

[DWBass]

Loud from a PA is one thing. Loud onstage is another. I can't stand a band who is loud onstage! It defeats the whole purpose of having a PA, IMO!

 

[MMcC]

I hardly ever like my music loud. Listening to music at home on the couch, in my car, in headphones... It doesn't bother me much when I'm in the crowd at a concert. Then I like it.

But when I'm playing a gig, I want the biggest, loudest sound for my band we can get.

 

[Gab124]

I love rock and roll - but most shows are so loud I cannot hear any definition, but I like feeling it. I quit going to concerts because it sounded better to listen to the music through headphones or a good stereo at a reasonable volume level - but that left no kick in the chest! That presented a problem for me. So I got the molded high end ear plugs and bingo - great experience now. I can now hear the subtleties of the music, with no loud wash and I can feel the kick all without ever having ringing ears Fantastic
So, I think that most rock concerts are too loud to appreciate the musicianship, but if looking for something other than that it might be ok that loud.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

It depends on the band.

I saw Morbid Angel back in 2006, and having never heard them before, had no idea what to expect... And they were way too loud. I was deaf in my right ear for three days because their lead guitarist was just too treble-y, too biting, and took up what felt like the entire mix in the PA. Their sound isn't really about being loud, so it just felt like a terrible buzzsaw in my ear the whole time.

Since then, I've had the pleasure of seeing both High on Fire as well as OM, both of whom play at volumes I'm sure many of you would consider "excessively" loud. And it was incredible. Om, in particular, was transcendental, and the first thing the bassist said when he came out to the stage was "The PA is already all the way up, I'm sorry but there's nothing we can do."

So, really, the loudness issue for me comes down to a simple question, are you doing anything with that much volume, or are you just being loud for the hell of it?

And just so you guys can get a sense of how loud OM was, here's a pic of the show I was at:

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[MakiSupaStar]

I've seen a ton of shows in all sorts of venues and I've played a bunch of shows in all sorts of venues. To me volume on stage should be reasonable enough to keep the energy up, but the mix going into crowd should be as loud as the venue and gear can handle without distortion. I'm not talking distortion that the band controls and creates, but distortion from an overwhelmed system and a rooms maximum volume capacity.

One of the best bands I ever saw play loud was Ministry. I remember at one show our seats were about mid distance back and the sound was moving so much I could feel it on my face and it was flapping my jeans back and forth. The kick was rattling my chest. The sound was incredible.

A close second was Dub Syndicate. It was at a show in Humbolt County, Ca, a festival called reggae on the river. Mad professor was mixing them live. I've never felt bass mixed so perfectly. It was big fat and heavy. It moved so hard that there were hippie earth chicks just collapsing in the front. They were swaying to the sound and it was like they just got hypnotized. I've still only ever seen that happen just that one time.

I've seen Pink Floyd. Hands down this was the most expensive and detailed sound system I've ever heard. They had they Rose Bowl mixed to a level that it was as intimate as a perfectly mixed living room surround system. It was a damn near religious experience that would not have been the same unless it was loud.

Recently I saw Mars Volta play at the Hollywood Palladium. I've seen close to a billion shows there, and in the past it was a very easy venue to swamp out. I've seen shows mixed terribly there. PFunk, Smashing Pumpkins, a few Primus shows, Fishbone, and even Fugazi (although they got ontop of the sound half way through that show). It wasn't that they weren't great performances, but the sound was just way too loud for the venue. It was distorting out and there was just this constant heavy drudging sonic mud that even p funk couldn't escape. So when I recently returned to the Palladium to see Mars Volta, I was not only pleasantly surprised to see that the remodel was totally built around acoustics and an amazing sound system. This was the third time I've seen Mars Volta. Not only were they playing great but I was able to really pick out all the nuances and layers that lies within their sound. It was really well done.

So volume to me depends on the venue, the sound system, and the musicians involved. All three have to be taken into account. I recently played an opening slot for a local punk band and they were so loud everyone was sitting outside in the smoking patio because their ears were bleeding. Volume has to be applied with skill and consideration no matter who you are or where your playing.

 

[DWBass]

I've seen a ton of shows in all sorts of venues and I've played a bunch of shows in all sorts of venues. To me volume on stage should be reasonable enough to keep the energy up, but the mix going into crowd should be as loud as the venue and gear can handle without distortion. I'm not talking distortion that the band controls and creates, but distortion from an overwhelmed system and a rooms maximum volume capacity.

I have to disagree here. I guess it does depends on the type of music played and the crowd that digs it. During the summer, I frequent a particular spot that has live bands mostly Top40, R&B, Motown, Beach Music type bands and I feel the sound system should be just loud enough where it's comfortable. Loud for the sake of being loud doesn't make sense. There were quite a few bands who had their 'own system and sound person' who I didn't think had a clue to what good sound was. One band was so loud I got up and left! Saw the Rippingtons (Jazz band) at a local Jazz Fest and the bass was so overwhelming to the point of annoyance! I kept looking at the sound man with an inquisitive look thinking he would know why I was staring at him and maybe he'd do something but nada! Saw Jill Scott (R&B singer) at another local Jazz Fest and the mix was so bad, all I could hear was a wall of sound with no distinction between instruments! Just LOUD! UGH! Even at my wedding reception years ago! The DJ was unnecessarily pumping the sound and I asked him to turn it down because I had older guests and they were leaving because the music was too loud! I'm sorry, loud for the sake of loud doesn't make sense to me. If you know what you're doing, you can make everyone 'feel' the music by knowing how to adjust levels properly.

 

[Metal Matt]

So, really, the loudness issue for me comes down to a simple question, are you doing anything with that much volume, or are you just being loud for the hell of it?

And just so you guys can get a sense of how loud OM was, here's a pic of the show I was at:

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So bummed I missed OM when they came to Chicago.


But I did see Sunn O))) back in June.

And so everyone can get an idea of how loud Sunn is live....

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Not the show I was at, but from what I can tell, same rigs. To the right there may be one more full stack for guitar. He was running 3 full stacks when I saw them. Bass was going through a few 8x10's and a couple 2x15's and a few tube amps. Synth goes through a pile of like 4 keyboard amps and then direct to PA where the real terror of a Sunn show comes through. The entire time, the synth is blasting through the PA at such a high level that it moves every molecule of air in the room. You feel every single vibration through every part of your body. When I closed my eyes and hung my head down, just zoning out to the music, I could feel my eyeballs vibrate against my eyelids and at a few points the air was moving so much against my chest that I became short of breath. Most intense thing I've experienced musically.

Also, despite their high stage volume everything is still micd on stage and going through the PA, although most of the guitar and bass volume is coming off the stage, PA priority is given to the vocals and synth.

To those that say high stage volume = bad sound... Seeing Sunn live was proof perfect that that doesn't have to be true. Wall of amps behind the singer, and there wasn't one time that it caused problems with bleed. Vocals were crystal clear, and the mix and tone sounded almost exactly like their CD. My friend overheard a soundguy at the venue talking outside that Sunn's soundcheck is 2 hours long... and it comes through in near perfect sound.


If you're wondering what the point is of such high volumes... The point for some groups like Sunn, although they are an extreme example, many bands in a few different genres are using super high volume/stage wide backlines for common reasons. It's not about being loud for the hell of it, it's about the meditative aspect of high volumes and low frequencies. Hearing super slow, low tuned riffs and progressions at a volume that vibrates your whole body and causes you to be unable to hear anyone standing next to you is relaxing, soothing, and it can change an entire familiar venue into a place unknown. Music can always set a mood of course, high volumes force it, makes it an experience for the crowd. You can lose yourself in it when the sound is just as abundant as the oxygen in the room. There was a point during Sunns set, where they held out a single chord for what seemed like 2 minutes straight... All four members of the band froze... guitar picks ceremoniously held in the air... room full of dense fog and as I watched them frozen like that and hearing that one chord resonating infinitely... it was like time itself was stopped. There were several times where I felt like I was dreaming, like what was happening couldn't be real. Using sound to create atmosphere that intense just can't be done with out super loud volume.

 

[wetzelman1]

just need to be loud enough to to get over the drums. In my metal band, that means we have to be loud.

Defenitely wear my plugs every practice and show.

 

[Jehos]

I've never felt bass mixed so perfectly. It was big fat and heavy. It moved so hard that there were hippie earth chicks just collapsing in the front. They were swaying to the sound and it was like they just got hypnotized. I've still only ever seen that happen just that one time.

That's not bass man, that's the drugs.