Double Bass General stance question for arco

[unbrokenchain]

I get that most orchestral players tend to be seated when playing the bass, but seemed more appropriate to ask here than the jazz, bluegrass, or rockabilly forums...

On playing arco while standing - my stance/body position is comfortable when I'm in the lower registers and also in thumb position, but the area of transition between the two is not consistent for me yet. The instrument is more or less balanced on the back edge of the upper bout just above my belly button in general. The problem arises when I try and use my thumb on the board for a lower note, say a C# or D on the G string. Since I'm no longer cradling the neck with my left thumb, and my right thumb is not on the fingerboard to stabilize as with pizz, I end up resting the back of the neck on my shoulder rather than my belly taking the balance weight. When I don't do that, the bass kind of rolls away from me. Any thoughts?

 

[Sean Riddle]

What I do when transitioning into thumb position while standing is I either bend my hips out to get the neck to rest on my shoulder or slightly twist by body to the right to again get the neck resting on my shoulder. I’ve noticed I tend to do the latter method when playing arco and the first while playing pizz. I do keep my bass at an angle while playing to make this easier to do. Still it’s definitely a challenge, but it sounds like what you’re doing does work! Practicing vomits while also practicing the body movements I mentioned has definitely helped me get better at this.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

My guess is that since almost [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] of orchestral players tend to play seated, they would not have this problem since a seated player does not need to stabilize with neck with shoulder or hands to get it to stay put. I'm trying to think of a player I know who plays standing who does not rest the neck on their shoulder while playing with the thumb on the front of the board, and I am not coming up with any. Just as a matter of physics, something has to hold the bass up!

 

[Don Hergert]

... Just as a matter of physics, something has to hold the bass up!

Sky hook!

I'm very young and immature with thumb position so I'm not having problems with the neck and shoulder hold yet...

My bigger concern right now is primarily with sitting arco, turning the bass in order to clearly reach either extreme of the strings. Is turning the bass normal for that, or am I doing something completely wrong?

 

[unbrokenchain]

Well hmm it sounds like I'm not the only one resting the neck on my shoulder for that position. It's not uncomfortable, just something I noticed myself doing and thought uh-oh, am I embedding bad technique? Guess I just need to embrace it if that's a pretty standard thing for those of us that stand. Good news I reckon!

I've been switching between german and french grip while practicing, which I know some folks here advise against, but there are some things I can do with each that are mutually exclusive as of now, and both seem to inform the other.

Still can't play right sitting down though, feels great for the bow hand (especially french) but my intonation just goes out the window in the lower positions.

 

[unbrokenchain]

Is turning the bass normal for that, or am I doing something completely wrong?

Not being a seated player I can't say for sure, but I thought one of the advantages of sitting was that you wouldn't need to turn the bass, just raise or sink your right elbow to access the strings? Though keeping the bow perpendicular to the strings might be a little tougher for german while sitting, again I'm just speculating. Standing I tend to straighten the bass up more vertically when I play fat notes on the E string and lean it further towards me for the G, I doubt that it's correct in any classical sense but it does for me facilitate keeping the bow perpendicular to the strings.

 

[Don Hergert]

Not being a seated player I can't say for sure, but I thought one of the advantages of sitting was that you wouldn't need to turn the bass, just raise or sink your right elbow to access the strings? ...

Thanks, I'll try that more. Maybe I'm not leaning in enough when sitting down. Somehow my bow (French) always seems to get either caught up on the bass's C edge, or my arm bumps my legs or the chair legs. I'm sure there is some geometry that works better than what I'm currently doing.

 

[jheise]

I'd like to let this video speak: starting after a couple of seconds, you see a lot of shifting in and out of thumb position and also playing in the transition area. Even though, Gary's famous "Vomit Exercise" is really about the bow, it helps getting comfortable in all positions on the bass, too.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

I'm trying to think of a player I know who plays standing who does not rest the neck on their shoulder while playing with the thumb on the front of the board, and I am not coming up with any.

Gary Karr. He talks about this in his online lessons. He subtlety lets the bass lean forward and uses it’s weight for pressure against the strings. He specifically does not want the neck to be on his shoulder.

Jazzyvee started a post on holding the bass, and got some interesting responses.
To stand or not to stand, that is the question.

 

[Sean Riddle]

Gary Karr. He talks about this in his online lessons. He subtlety lets the bass lean forward and uses it’s weight for pressure against the strings. He specifically does not want the neck to be on his shoulder.

Jazzyvee started a post on holding the bass, and got some interesting responses.
To stand or not to stand, that is the question.

Edicson Ruiz and Stephan Crump come to mind as well. I’ve noticed that a lot players who either more come from Gary Karr’s school of playing and fair amount of German bassists don’t rest the neck on their shoulders in thumb position and usually keep their bass completely upright.

 

[unbrokenchain]

It's quick, but at the 5:10 mark in the video above, Gary hits a C# with his thumb, same position as a B for me since I'm tuned orch, and it's hard to see very clearly but I suppose it's proof that one doesn't need to rest the bass neck on the human shoulder to use the thumb on notes lower than the octave harmonic. Also proof that one doesn't need a real rowboat if one instead has a double bass...

 

[Matt Ides]

One thing to keep in mind with Gary is that the nut is way above where most teachers would recommend it. Thus, his default playing position puts him right at thumb position. Look at Edgar as well. Standing soloist keep the bass higher than you average player. Please keep that in mind when referencing soloist and thumb position.

 

[neilG]

Thus, his default playing position puts him right at thumb position. Look at Edgar as well. Standing soloist keep the bass higher than you average player. Please keep that in mind when referencing soloist and thumb position.

Yes. I wonder how comfortable Karr's or Meyer's position would be if they had to spend any significant amount of time playing complex passages in half position like the rest of us. For most of us compromise is the key. I rest the bass on my shoulder (lightly) when standing and playing and staying in thumb position. Why not?

 

[unbrokenchain]

Yeah, I just decided to keep doing it and not fight the habit. Getting better with the transition area, I can use my thumb to stop notes as low as C on the G string if I really want to.

The nut on my bass is about in line with the top of my head if the bass is totally vertical, but I tend to lean the bass over so that it's around my temple/eyebrow when actually playing. The endpin is long enough for practice (shoeless in the house) but I made a longer one from a dowel so that it feels the same once I put on boots for the stage. Higher than some but not near as high as Meyer or Karr.

I'm mostly a meat&potatoes kinda player, bluegrass and Americana gigs don't often call for arco in thumb position, heck everyone seems more impressed by clickity clack clack ding kinda solos anyway.. but I'm determined to work up some good bow skills eventually, if only for reasons of personal fulfillment and my own musical material.

Thanks for the input!

 

[jheise]

I'd like to address the last three posts. I went to Karr Kamp for a few years and had the great fortune to learn from Gary. I'm not a good bass player but I think I understand the concepts behind what we've been taught well enough.

It's not about "the height of the bass makes it easier to play in thumb position etc.". The height of the bass is a direct result of where you want to position the bow to get YOUR sound. If you play closer to the bridge (in relation to other people) - because that's where you get YOUR sound - you put the bass high enough so that your bow arm/your bow is always in the correct position. The rest of Gary's concepts related to "how you stand with the bass" are actually quite flexible because basses and people's bodies are always different. It's not "one size fits all", it's more about the tendency in many things. But sound comes first, so the bow comes first.

The other extreme might be: if you always play close to or on the fingerboard with the bow (because you like that sound) - well, keep the bass at a height that comforts that playing style. No problem. You get different "problems" you have to address because the bass is in a totally different position to your body.

I wonder how comfortable Karr's [...] position would be if they had to spend any significant amount of time playing complex passages in half position like the rest of us.

I'm just an amateur player but if I get tired or uncomfortable through a full weekend of practice with an amateur orchestra or a long jazz gig or band practice, it's not because I'm standing up and have the bass high. So for me, it's quite comfortable.

 

[Matt Ides]

Two octave vomit exercise will also let you know how your body feels and responds to sliding in and out of thumb position and what is comfortable. I still struggling with be relaxed in all positions so I think ensuring you are relaxed is pretty key.

 

[LouisF]

This is more "Karr school" but useful (I play sitting down:

Geoff has more insights here:

Louis