genz benz / mesa boogie

[thetaxmiser]

So I've read through the many long threads about the M6 and the Shuttle 12. Also about the mesa PH212 and the Neox212 and the new 212 uber. I will eventually try these out (assuming I can find them nearby) but in the meantime I was wondering if anyone could compare / contrast a few things if you have had the pleasure of trying both.

Shuttle12 versus M6 Carbine?

PH212 versus Neox212 versus 212 uber?

I like a tight, punchy sound. Right now I am using a Thunderfunk 420 into 2 Bergantino 112 cabs. Tight sound but it seems to come up short in a group setting where I want some authority. For about 20 years I played an Alembic F2B preamp - Mesa Boogie M180 poweramp - Electrovoice B215-M. Loved the sound but decided to try to lighten my load.

I guess one last question - has anyone tried a M6 into a neox212?

Mesa Boogie is the home team to me as they are in Sonoma County. I am really impressed by the GenzBenz guys who post on this board and it has gotten me interested in their products (along with all the great reviews)>

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[KsPiNeSh]

I can't comment on the M6/Max12 comparison or the PH 212 and Uber 212 cabs, but I own both the Fathom (M6) and GBE 1200 and play them both through NEOX-212T cabs.

The GBE 1200 is my primary gigging head (over 3 years now) and the Mesa is my primary practice head (I've owned this one for a month or so), but I absolutely love them both. Both heads are very punchy, quick, and articulate through the NEOX cabs. To my ear, the Genz is a bit brighter and more modern (though not by much) and the Mesa has a slightly dirtier, smoother, less shiny sound. The design philosophies are also a little bit different - Genz specifically designs their amps to be punchy and to roll off some sub-bass frequencies (which can be nicely and appropriately dialed back up through the LF Extend signal shaper) while the Mesa is fatter through the low-lows, giving a tight, punchy tone (maybe a bit puchier than the Genz) with just a touch more rumble. Engaging the Pull Deep feature realy broadens that Mesa low-end, and I prefer having it engaged.

Both heads really shine through the 212 cab as it is a even, modern cab that really opens up at higher volumes. I use the M6 for practice, as it gives me a bit more rumble in a no-PA situation, but for gigging I love the Genz, as that low tightness really shines through a PA sub setup and gives you a snug, audible place in the mix.

For example, I just played a show Saturday night where my signal chain was Corvette 5 (tuned A-C-G-C-F, very slight bass and treble boost) --> GBE 1200 (both channels engaged, very slight low and low-mid boost, LF Extend at ~ 1:30)--> 1 NEOX-212T cab. The soundman actually put a mic on me instead of going direct and, quite frankly, it was an awesome tone. I wandered into the crowd and was very impressed - clear and distinct with tons of depth. That Genz gear really pushes a PA well.

The Mesa EQ on the surface appears limited, especially next to the comprehensive and thorough Genz EQ sections, but I have never found myself lacking control. The voicing options are very useful and it is really a plug-and-play amp. Bass Gear Magazine (www.bassgearmag.com, free digital subscriptions!) did a thorough and comprehensive review of the M6/PH212 and GBE 1200/NEOX 212T in their first issue. You should definitely check it out, as it is good reading.

I'm going to stop writing now - hope that helps!

 

[casio]

I havent tried the genz stuff, but can speak on the mesa gear since I own an m-pulse, and managed to A/B it with the M6 carbine on two occasions!
I'm a fan of the mesa stuff cause its an ideal combo of modern and vintage, I can get what I want when I need it, from Hi-Fi to old school, so what I wanted to say is dont throw the m-pulse out of the equation!
But I doubt you can go wrong with the Genz stuff either, its all down to personal preference!

 

[buffordbass]

I havent tried the genz stuff, but can speak on the mesa gear since I own an m-pulse, and managed to A/B it with the M6 carbine on two occasions!
I'm a fan of the mesa stuff cause its an ideal combo of modern and vintage, I can get what I want when I need it, from Hi-Fi to old school, so what I wanted to say is dont throw the m-pulse out of the equation!
But I doubt you can go wrong with the Genz stuff either, its all down to personal preference!

Well put, a good combination of modern to old-school. I havent tried the Carbine, but I can say that the Shuttle 12 MAX is the best bass amp I've ever owned. That is a strong statement and includes the mesa 600 and PH212 set up. I must admit that the PH 212 was my all time favorite bass cab until they delivered my Uber 212 two weeks ago. The Uber cab gives you all of the richness and buttery smooth sound that the PH212 has, in a smaller, lighter and clearer box. I am getting older, and the Mesa gear is pretty bulletproof, but HEAVY AS HECK!! The Genz MAX 12 and Uber 212 will be my main gig rig until somebody can do better..... and I figure that may be a while.
Now, I play virtually all finger style... I dont slap & pop and I prefer the smooth, full, "Old School" sound over the more modern "sterile" sounding gear... but if you are comparing Mesa, I figure you are too?!?!

 

[stflbn]

Neox212 or TechAmp 212 would be the two cabinets I'd replace one of my two avatar b210's with to go with my Genz Benz NeoPak.

Will be a while until I can afford either though... even though it would be great to see more Genz Benz gear played around Nashville.

 

[yamaha]

''To my ear, the Genz is a bit brighter and more modern (though not by much) and the Mesa has a slightly dirtier, smoother, less shiny sound.'', from KsPiNeSh.

That really well sums up my findings. To me, they are both top quality heads, with the Genz having more in common (tone-wise) with a top notch ss head, while the Mesa has tonal genes that are from the tube family.

 

[rpsands]

I have yet to hear a 212 cab that comes close to a Neox 212T. If that thing had a 6" mid driver instead of the horn and 12s that went just a little lower, I would crown it king of all cabinets forever.

Mesa makes quality 212s, but something about the vertical alignment in a big box makes me super happy. It really projects and fills the hell out of a room.

I will never go back to the staggered cabs again.

 

[thetaxmiser]

Thanks for the info. I am an old school guy. I like punch but not boom. Don't like the scooped sound. A tight, well defined sound but with some heft. More Rocco than Jaco.

The stacked 212 seems so practical just from the standpoint of being able to hear yourself on a tight stage (instead of all the sound hitting the back of your knees). The light weight is also a huge plus.

I am a plug and play type and don't fiddle with the amp during a gig. I like to control my sound from the bass, primarily by finger placement / attack. The ShuttleMax 12 looks great but man, thats a lot of knobs!

 

[buffordbass]

If you make the sound come from your hands and not the eq, the Shuttle MAX is overkill. Go with the Shuttle 6.0 at under 4 lbs, still have the power of the M6 and win/win on all points. As for the sound hitting the back of your legs... that will happen with nearly all of the 212's. I found a set up that is perfect FOR ME, that you might consider....
Dual 112 NeoX cabs, one on the floor and one on an amp stand pointed at my head so I can hear everything going on. When we are in a big room I point one at my head and one at my drummer and let the FOH balance the room. You might at least consider...

 

[fishtx]

If you make the sound come from your hands and not the eq, the Shuttle MAX is overkill. Go with the Shuttle 6.0 at under 4 lbs, still have the power of the M6 and win/win on all points. As for the sound hitting the back of your legs... that will happen with nearly all of the 212's. I found a set up that is perfect FOR ME, that you might consider....
Dual 112 NeoX cabs, one on the floor and one on an amp stand pointed at my head so I can hear everything going on. When we are in a big room I point one at my head and one at my drummer and let the FOH balance the room. You might at least consider...

Sorry to hijack a little...but I gotta comment...

Terry...That is a beautiful guitar that dude in playing in the pic...Is that Gretch?

 

[MIJ-VI]

If you make the sound come from your hands and not the eq, the Shuttle MAX is overkill. Go with the Shuttle 6.0 at under 4 lbs, still have the power of the M6 and win/win on all points. As for the sound hitting the back of your legs... that will happen with nearly all of the 212's. I found a set up that is perfect FOR ME, that you might consider....
Dual 112 NeoX cabs, one on the floor and one on an amp stand pointed at my head so I can hear everything going on. When we are in a big room I point one at my head and one at my drummer and let the FOH balance the room. You might at least consider...

 

[svtb15]

My Shuttle MAX12 is the best amp that i have played.
I have a M6 on loan from a buddy to eval, The M6 is great, loud, punchy and clean. Very organic.
But the MAx12 is warmer, as fast, lighter, and louder. I love the ability to have two preamps too.. At first i wondered what am i going to do with two preamps. But over time i realized the genius and the ability to use separately or together to get a sound that is in my head.
A drummer that i gig with often, just loves my Shuttle Max12 too, yes over the M6... and he had his other bass player come to my gig to hear my MAX12 rig against the M6. I bought both heads that night just for him to hear. he went and bought Shuttle.

The m6 is incredible but the MAX12 is a warm yet punchy and very articulate head that pushes forward in the mix. it can also lie down a nice big pillow too.
Some say the M6 is so loud they can never use all it has.... Well not me. I play bass in Texas and some of these guitards are ridicules in how loud they play.You have never seen anything like it...
I can run the M6 into limit... the MAX12 has not hit that wall... and it still stays warm and i can feel it in the pants.
Im sure i will get some nay sayers but i ask them if they have ever done side by side on a gig with the same heads... I have..
The M6 is brighter in general... with a slight bass roll off. but you can add the bass back in if you pull the deep switch..and it depends on what cabs yo are using.. great amp..perhaps a new classic....

where the MAX12 seems to be flatter and warmer. did say the shuttle is warm? its just very nice to listen to...
the MAX12 is tube sounding but can be extremely tight and full by using the FET channel.. The MAX12 is my main goto amp. and the Shuttle 6 does all the pickup stuff and small gigs and fly dates.. it fits in my carry on without a problem.


i would say they M6 and Shuttle MAX12 are apple to oranges. Both great pieces of fruit and to each his own..

 

[Sliide90027]

It helped confirm my personal opinion in the face of visiting the shop on Sunset and wondering about going beyond 2 12ax7's in the signal path.

Although the Avalon has 4 like some boogie's, I think this post makes it clear that with 2 I am not missing anything.

It has saved me experimentation.

 

[goldsmithr]

I guess one last question - has anyone tried a M6 into a neox212?

Yes, in fact that is my go-to rig. The NEO never sounded better to me than when I run the Carbine M6 into it. I had brief flirtation with a Streamliner 900 before that, but the head was too goopy and lacked presence. By contras, the punch of the Carbine seems to sit nicely and complements the slightly bloomy nature of the 212 cabinet.

 

[Sliide90027]

Gold....

I can only half agree, and that is on the NeoX.

When I made cabinets with Deiter Fust in Atlanta, a long time ago, he taught me the value of Baltic Birch in cabinet Construction.

It was the Baltic Birch Cosntruction of the NeoX which put me over the top to buy the 400 112T Combo without hearing it, purely on specifications.

I like you am very satisfied, did I say I am very satisfied?

I see your experience as a reaffirmation of the observations and cabinet materials doctrine I learned from a Master Cabinet Builder in regards to Bass.

As for the Amp. To each his own. but if it is a Bass Cabinet, it must be Baltic Birch.

 

[lomo]

My Shuttle MAX12 is the best amp that i have played.
I have a M6 on loan from a buddy to eval, The M6 is great, loud, punchy and clean. Very organic.
But the MAx12 is warmer, as fast, lighter, and louder.

Unless you are running both sides of the 12 into a load under 4 Ohms, the Max 12 is not louder than the Carbine IME. The Carbines also have more content below 50Hz. IMO, for weight, reliability and customer service, GB has the edge. For depth, girth and tone, my preference is Mesa, and I dig that they are made by hand in the US.

 

[Sliide90027]

I have one of these little tiny Neox400 combos.

it goes down to 45hz and handles my Low B well enough that a Guitardist with his 3 Marshall Stacks (but only 2 amps, holy ohmage imbalance Batman!) fired me for being too loud when the second 112 cab was hooked up.

I tried an MPulse with the 4x10 Cabinet, and it jsut did not have any tone to it, but I am a Bright Fiend of Entwistle, Lee, and King.

Now this does not mean that I have no use for warmth, but the reality of the situation is I found Boogie to be Disco Boom. It appears from here, that it is not just me.

If that is what one is looking for that is OK, a Boogie will make one very happy, without a doubt.