Double Bass George Mraz Tone

[ejnachtrab]

To get that tone, I recommend a fretless EBG or ABG with roundwounds. It doesn't sound like anything I'd want to produce on an upright.

To be clear, I’m not talking about trying to get that tone. I’m saying that a generation of players developed WITH that sound, not in spite of it.

I get it, I don’t really love it either. But I did back then… sometimes I try to hear it without reacting or judging. Or I just try to remember how it sounded to me then.

 

[Jason Sypher]

A few thoughts FWIW:

When I got to college in 1990 my bass teacher was Jeff Halsey. He had what was the gold standard amp set up of the time: a Walter Woods, two Bose Speakers, and an Underwood pick up. He had incredible chops and played loud. His bass growled so much that I hated sitting in on it because it felt completely out of my control. Jeff’s playing was 100% adapted to the aesthetic of the time. Don’t get me wrong, he could get his sound without the amp, but his playing was informed and fully adapted to how the bass was amplified back then. Incidentally, Tommy Flanagan loved Jeff’s playing and wanted him to go on the road but Jeff didn’t want to leave his teaching gig…

I hear George Mraz as the bassist possibly most adapted to, or even created by that sound. Rufus Reid, is another one. Listen to him on those last Live Stan Getz records. He’s cranked and playing soft, not just dealing with it, but fully adapted. Marc Johnson and NHOP too. They came of age with that technology. It wasn’t a compromise, it was cool AF! It’s much tougher for me to listen to and accept the sound of Older players in the 70’s and 80’s. Sam Jones or Ray Brown came up one way then had to adapt or “deal with it”. Ron Carter arguable made the biggest change out of all those guys.

I can’t really separate George Mraz and some of those other greats from that time/sound. It’s interesting to be here now when we talk about the (Fishman/Underwood) piezo as being objectively bad. It’s worth trying to sit down and listen to it as if it’s the absolute coolest thing, just to try to get some perspective.

I really appreciate this post. It’s level-headed and full of perspective. I think it still applies to our current crop of amplification tools. Use the technology to your advantage. We are mostly of the mind of fighting for our perfectly acoustic sound and it’s a worthy cause. But nothing really sounds acoustic the moment it hits a speaker enclosure (before of course). There are many ways to deal with this. We deal with this acoustically from the first time we play, all the way up to the big stages. We deal with it daily. George adapted to the gig. Blanton adapted. Ray adapted. Neils adapted. Ron adapted. We all have to find a sound that we can use to make the most music.

 

[shwashwa]

as far as i know, mraz used the schertler stat b, and i know for a fact that rufus used a barbera on those live stan getz albums, because his old pickup from those albums is now on one of my basses!

 

[gerry grable]

I really appreciate this post. It’s level-headed and full of perspective. I think it still applies to our current crop of amplification tools. Use the technology to your advantage. We are mostly of the mind of fighting for our perfectly acoustic sound and it’s a worthy cause. But nothing really sounds acoustic the moment it hits a speaker enclosure (before of course). There are many ways to deal with this. We deal with this acoustically from the first time we play, all the way up to the big stages. We deal with it daily. George adapted to the gig. Blanton adapted. Ray adapted. Neils adapted. Ron adapted. We all have to find a sound that we can use to make the most music.

In my years of playing, I always tried to get my amp, an Ampeg B-15 , to sound as close to the wood sound as possible. The most prevalent comment I received on the bandstand was to turn up the volume. I believe that the relatively high amplification of bass on recordings has changed the perception of what is the "normal" balance of instruments in live performances.
But then, I'm from the unamplified era of the "bass should be felt, not heard " philosophy.

 

[Bruce Calin]

In my years of playing, I always tried to get my amp, an Ampeg B-15 , to sound as close to the wood sound as possible. The most prevalent comment I received on the bandstand was to turn up the volume. I believe that the relatively high amplification of bass on recordings has changed the perception of what is the "normal" balance of instruments in live performances.
But then, I'm from the unamplified era of the "bass should be felt, not heard " philosophy.

I'd been playing professionally for a few years by the time amplifying the bass became anything like a musical possibility. It had its issues at first but eventually got to be pretty standard practice for most situations. The tone quality was secondary to volume and slowly became more important as gear got more sophisticated. What constituted good tone seemed to vary widely depending on player and circumstance. I liked hearing the differences between the sounds of players I admired on record and didn't necessarily think of any as better or worse. Clarity was the big issue for me, and still is to a great extent, and what I try to get as much as I can in my own playing. I generally prefer the more "natural" tone now to the extent that that's possible, but a good player is a good player no matter the tone.
As an aside to Gerry Grable: are you still using the B-15? If so, you are the only player I know of who still uses it for gigging, which most of us used at some point back when and gave up for more portable alternatives- more power to ya!

 

[klyph]

The piezo tone used to bother me a little, too.
Then, about 30 years ago I heard this track (recorded almost 50 years ago).
Changed my thinking about it few things, musically speaking.
Why simply “accept”, “work around” or “filter” what you perceive as shortcomings?
Just my 2c…
P.S. I haven’t met a wind player yet who likes Jeremy Steig. I love his playing and tone, too. Different strokes and all…

 

[notabene]

P.S. I haven’t met a wind player yet who likes Jeremy Steig. I love his playing and tone, too. Different strokes and all…

As a young man, I was able sometimes to sit in (on flute) with Jeremy Steig's jazz-rock-funk band around 1966 at "The Dom" in the east village. First real"crossover" band I ever heard. Great players playing a genre that was a one-off, not really heard before (or since).
He,and his compatriots, were kind, gracious, and accepting. and wonderful players.

• Jeremy Steig – flute
• Adrian Guillery − guitar, harmonica, vocals
• Warren B. Bernhardt − electric piano, vocals
• Eddie Gómez − bass
• Joe Chambers drums (live, not on this album)

Jeremy had a partially paralyzed face/lips that made a legit flute tone impossible, so it is not surprising that, if you didn't know this , you could rag on his tone. But he really created a one-off genre that was (and is) unique. A true
gentleman.

 

[Don Kasper]

The piezo tone used to bother me a little, too.
Then, about 30 years ago I heard this track (recorded almost 50 years ago).
Changed my thinking about it few things, musically speaking.
Why simply “accept”, “work around” or “filter” what you perceive as shortcomings?
Just my 2c…
P.S. I haven’t met a wind player yet who likes Jeremy Steig. I love his playing and tone, too. Different strokes and all…

Wow. Wow. Thanks for posting this - I had not heard this before and I'm a longtime EG fan.
Also - After the first 3 or so minutes, (beyond the signal "processing/effect" intro), EG's sound is beautiful - it sounds like a good mic on his bass, and if there is a pickup involved in the mix, it is not at all "piezo-ey".
Also Too - Eddie's accompaniment throughout and his solo are mind-blowing, AND it is a LIVE Performance(!!!!!!!!!)
IMFO, of course.
Thanks, again, klyph.

 

[klyph]

Wow. Wow. Thanks for posting this - I had not heard this before and I'm a longtime EG fan.
Also - After the first 3 or so minutes, (beyond the signal "processing/effect" intro), EG's sound is beautiful - it sounds like a good mic on his bass, and if there is a pickup involved in the mix, it is not at all "piezo-ey".
Also Too - Eddie's accompaniment throughout and his solo are mind-blowing, AND it is a LIVE Performance(!!!!!!!!!)
IMFO, of course.
Thanks, again, klyph.

You can imagine my surprise when, mostly ignorant of EG’s playing and not knowing Jeremy Stieg at all, I bought this for 2$ from the vinyl bin in a used book store. My mind was totally blown. Mind you, this is probably the most accessible track on the Lp.
It’s also worth mentioning how unbelievably hi-fi this recording is; the noise floor on this live recording is lower than many (vinyl) studio recordings in my collection. Of course, listening on a computer, that gets a little lost.
I think, from listening to this, that it is indeed a piezo, maybe even an underwood, but he has high action. That would certainly make the playing that much more impressive! But I think sometimes low action is as much responsible for the “quack” as the pickup itself. Also, he might be only using the E string side of the pickup. I would also love to know what pedal he was using, or if he was running through an actual synthesizer. The cover of the record has a picture of the two of them playing, but it’s too grainy to discern much, and they’re posing outside of the venue. But… it kind of looks like the bass has guts! I don’t think that’s possible, though from listening to the record. The ghost notes and harmonics suggest steel strings and a piezo. Maybe it’s a mix. Whatever. It’s an amazing track, for sure. One of my favorites.
I don’t have my copy of the record in front of me right now, but I believe it was recorded live in 1976, in Stockholm. That was one lucky audience!

 

[Mike Carr]

I remember an interview years ago in which Eddie said he was he used an und

 

[Mike Carr]

Sorry, I got interrupted.. What I meant to say is I read an old article from years ago in which Eddie Gomez said he used Underwood Pickup into a Polytone Mini Brute set flat. He's since moved on to the Yakahimo Pickup.
A Polytone and an Underwood might be out of fashion now but it's still a good sound. At least certainly think so!

 

[Bruce Calin]

Sorry, I got interrupted.. What I meant to say is I read an old article from years ago in which Eddie Gomez said he used Underwood Pickup into a Polytone Mini Brute set flat. He's since moved on to the Yakahimo Pickup.
A Polytone and an Underwood might be out of fashion now but it's still a good sound. At least certainly think so!

A lot of us went to that setup around that time. It sounded pretty good and was easily portable. I sometimes wonder if all the time and money spent on gear since has been that much of an improvement.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

A generation before the first clip there was as virtually no amplification of the DB. Sure, there were a few pickups but generally, the player just did his best and may have had a microphone. Maybe. The Underwood was what they had and it does a great job of amplifying the instrument in a very clear way. Thankfully, the technology has provided more natural solutions but the DB isn’t an easy instrument to amplify correctly.
I just finished up an old German bass and put Spirocores on it. The string height is a bit high because I want to see how it settles in before making final adjustments. A retired luthier and bassist played it today and went into the, ‘I hope you lower the strings, I don’t like Spirocores, a little too much scoop for me…….’
Musicians can be opinionated sometimes and can miss the forest for the trees. George Mraz played his a$$ off and sounded the way he did at times. I’ll sound better than that but will seldom play better and that’s the goal.

 

[Mike Carr]

A lot of us went to that setup around that time. It sounded pretty good and was easily portable. I sometimes wonder if all the time and money spent on gear since has been that much of an improvement.

Bruce, I really don't think most of $1000's of dollars I've spent have shown a proportionate return in terms of any dramatic improvements for me. I still have my Mini Brute. My Underwood Pickup sounds almost as good as my Wilson K4, now also decades old technology. As for Eddie Gomez, I had the great pleasure of hearing and meeting him in Shanghai in 2011. He was playing borrowed /rented basses for the tour. That night he played a Shen Plywood sporting a Fishman BP 100 plugged into the house Mark Bass rig and sounded wonderful. Even the arco stuff he played sounded great! It's not the arrow it's the archer.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Best thing I ever bought was an AMT mic. When I use it I get as close as ever to my natural sound. Everything else has been fine, never spectacular no matter what I put it through. I’ve got a realist on there for the last decade. Always works, rarely feeds back. Im done.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

No arco for me on my gigs, but I am totally happy with the current state of pickups and amps. Set the two knobs that matter to suit the room, then just play and let the music speak for itself!

 

[Bruce Calin]

Brian Torff played my bass at an after hours jam at a jazz festival years ago because he was traveling with an EUB and wanted to play a real bass. I don't remember what rig stage I was at then but the bass sounded great because it was Mr. Torff playing it. I only hope some of that mojo stayed with it.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I also came up listening live to Rufus, Eddie, Stafford James and Mike Richmond with the Piezo sound popular at the time. I never really dug it but I jumped on board with, first, a Polytone bar, to a Barcus Berry and finally got an Underwood. Always sounded too midrange flat to me, more bass guitar than acoustic bass.

One night in the middle a concert with none other than Sam Rivers my sound changed dramatically into a wonderful deep and more natural tone. I had no idea what happened but at some point I looked down at my bridge and saw the G side element of the Underwood dangling unattached. Never stuck it back in again.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Sorry, I got interrupted.. What I meant to say is I read an old article from years ago in which Eddie Gomez said he used Underwood Pickup into a Polytone Mini Brute set flat. He's since moved on to the Yakahimo Pickup.
A Polytone and an Underwood might be out of fashion now but it's still a good sound. At least certainly think so!

That's what I used for years. I knew nothing about gear, and Pop would always tell me not to worry about that stuff, just play your bass.

 

[Michael Karn]

One night in the middle a concert with none other than Sam Rivers…

Eric, would you mind telling me (or “us”, there have got to be others here as curious as I am) what size group it was, what did you play and what playing with Sam Rivers was like?