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Double Bass George Mraz Tone

#43
Very true, whatever Stan wants Stan Getz. I toured with him from December 1979 to the end of 1980 when I had enough dealing with him and all of his personalities. They also used to say "Stan Getz, a nice bunch of guys!" Stan was my first big time touring gig and I learned a lot. Probably learned more about life than music, although the music was amazing and Stan was a brilliant artist. As far as his stage outfit is concerned, he was obviously trying to get "some" after the gig wearing shorts that short! The good old days.....
Back to the thread, first off George Mraz was one of my biggest influences as a bass player when I was young. To me truly one of the greatest ever, bar none. I used to hang with him a lot in NYC back in those days and would go hear him play all the time. He always sounded fantastic. In the Stan Getz video the bass sound is obviously piezo's under the bridge and they have it mixed very upfront in volume.
FWIW here are a few thoughts and observations from playing upright bass live on stage and in the recording studio for about 45 years. They are completely different things entirely. The only thing they have in common is that you are playing the same bass. Being in a recording studio is mostly a totally controlled environment, not all the time, but mostly. Depends on the isolation in the studio as to how much control over your sound you have. The more isolation the more control you have. Live on stage you have very little control of your sound as there are so many other factors involved in what your sound live is like. The stage, amps, speakers, gear, room size, PA, crowd size, indoor, outdoor, who you are playing with, what the music is, what the volume on stage is, how loud the band is, how close you are to the drummer, how loud the drummer is, how loud are the stage monitors of the other players, etc... on and on....
We always want the bass sound live to be real and sound like the bass you are actually playing, but that is impossible. The louder and bigger the music is on stage makes it even harder to have a real acoustic sound live on stage. For years and years we all keep trying to fine that happy medium on stage that allows your bass to sound like a bass and yet still have every note heard clearly and cleanly. In the studio you hear the sound of the bass through a mic. No amp, no pickup, just the acoustic sound in the air that the mic picks up. That is the sound we all love, the sound that comes out of your instrument. That sound is you, your hands, the strings you use, the bass you play, and the set up of the bass you play. That is not the sound you have live on a stage. You do hear your hands, your strings, the bass you play, your bass set up, but you hear no air, no finesse. You also hear your pickup, your chord, your amp, your pre-amp, your speaker cabinet, the soundman's eq, the monitors, the mains, the sound of the room, the feedback, the low frequency rumble of rooms resonating that are not tuned or designed for sound and certainly not bass trapped for low frequency, on and on. With that said when the piezo pickups came on the scene for upright bass players they were ground breaking because that have a much higher volume to feedback threshold than traditional bass pickups, they pick up more string so therefore they allow for more sustain, and they don't have the acoustic woof and muddy/unclear and unfocused sound of a lot of upright basses and what traditional bass pickups amplify from those basses. The made it so you didn't have to fight the bass to be heard. I always use multiple pick ups live or a blend of pickups and a mic to at least get some air and the best of both worlds, but it will never be what you get acoustically or in the studio live. So yes Georges bass sounds like piezo pickups with no air and acoustic sound at all, but listen to his note choices, his playing over chord changes, his intonation, him just being George Mraz. He was wonderful........
 
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#45
I played with Getz for about a year total, as we did some gigs down the line. In all of that time I don't think I ever heard him make a mistake or miss a chord change, ever. He also had a photographic memory. He would read a new chart down at a soundcheck and play it that night on stage in front of thousands of people by memory with no music in front of him, no matter how challenging the chart was or how many chord changes it had. He was a freak of nature.......
 
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#46
Brian Bromberg said:
I played with Getz for about a year total, as we did some gigs down the line. In all of that time I don't think I ever heard him make a mistake or miss a chord change, ever. He also had a photographic memory. He would read a new chart down at a soundcheck and play it that night on stage in front of thousands of people by memory with no music in front of him, no matter how challenging the chart was or how many chord changes it had. He was a freak of nature.......
Click to expand...
Amazing. Amazing with all of the super-human gifts he possessed, Stan sounded so beautifully human. :)
 
#49
Brian Bromberg said:
So yes Georges bass sounds like piezo pickups with no air and acoustic sound at all, but listen to his note choices, his playing over chord changes, his intonation, him just being George Mraz. He was wonderful........
Click to expand...

^^^This! When I watched the video, it took me a quick minute to get over the the bass sound, but then I forgot all about it and was blown away (once again) by how astonishingly perfect everything else about George Mraz’s playing was. What a player!
 
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#50
I spent a week with George Mraz at one of Attila Zoller’s jazz camps in Newfane, VT in the early 90’s. I always felt he was there more for the fishing than the music. I probably learned more from standing next to him every night at the faculty jam sessions than in the lessons I had with him, or anyone else since then for that matter! I came away from that experience with my head filled with his beautiful swinging lines and perfect technique. He also wanted to trade me his bass plus some cash for my bass (I should have done it!), and gave me an advance xeroxed copy of Mike Richmond’s Modern Walking Bass, which hadn’t been published yet (a great book on adding rhythmic accents, triplets, and “drops” to walking bass lines).

What a player!
 
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#53
I heard George Mraz live a few times in the late 80’s and the sound was quite electric but not terrible. Of course his playing was otherworldly perfect. It’s a shame they recorded him the way they did but I have to think it’s the sound he preferred. I have kept it in mind when I plug in, the pitfalls of pick ups on your sound.
 
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#56
Brian Bromberg said:
Very true, whatever Stan wants Stan Getz. I toured with him from December 1979 to the end of 1980 when I had enough dealing with him and all of his personalities. They also used to say "Stan Getz, a nice bunch of guys!" Stan was my first big time touring gig and I learned a lot. Probably learned more about life than music, although the music was amazing and Stan was a brilliant artist. As far as his stage outfit is concerned, he was obviously trying to get "some" after the gig wearing shorts that short! The good old days.....
Back to the thread, first off George Mraz was one of my biggest influences as a bass player when I was young. To me truly one of the greatest ever, bar none. I used to hang with him a lot in NYC back in those days and would go hear him play all the time. He always sounded fantastic. In the Stan Getz video the bass sound is obviously piezo's under the bridge and they have it mixed very upfront in volume.
FWIW here are a few thoughts and observations from playing upright bass live on stage and in the recording studio for about 45 years. They are completely different things entirely. The only thing they have in common is that you are playing the same bass. Being in a recording studio is mostly a totally controlled environment, not all the time, but mostly. Depends on the isolation in the studio as to how much control over your sound you have. The more isolation the more control you have. Live on stage you have very little control of your sound as there are so many other factors involved in what your sound live is like. The stage, amps, speakers, gear, room size, PA, crowd size, indoor, outdoor, who you are playing with, what the music is, what the volume on stage is, how loud the band is, how close you are to the drummer, how loud the drummer is, how loud are the stage monitors of the other players, etc... on and on....
We always want the bass sound live to be real and sound like the bass you are actually playing, but that is impossible. The louder and bigger the music is on stage makes it even harder to have a real acoustic sound live on stage. For years and years we all keep trying to fine that happy medium on stage that allows your bass to sound like a bass and yet still have every note heard clearly and cleanly. In the studio you hear the sound of the bass through a mic. No amp, no pickup, just the acoustic sound in the air that the mic picks up. That is the sound we all love, the sound that comes out of your instrument. That sound is you, your hands, the strings you use, the bass you play, and the set up of the bass you play. That is not the sound you have live on a stage. You do hear your hands, your strings, the bass you play, your bass set up, but you hear no air, no finesse. You also hear your pickup, your chord, your amp, your pre-amp, your speaker cabinet, the soundman's eq, the monitors, the mains, the sound of the room, the feedback, the low frequency rumble of rooms resonating that are not tuned or designed for sound and certainly not bass trapped for low frequency, on and on. With that said when the piezo pickups came on the scene for upright bass players they were ground breaking because that have a much higher volume to feedback threshold than traditional bass pickups, they pick up more string so therefore they allow for more sustain, and they don't have the acoustic woof and muddy/unclear and unfocused sound of a lot of upright basses and what traditional bass pickups amplify from those basses. The made it so you didn't have to fight the bass to be heard. I always use multiple pick ups live or a blend of pickups and a mic to at least get some air and the best of both worlds, but it will never be what you get acoustically or in the studio live. So yes Georges bass sounds like piezo pickups with no air and acoustic sound at all, but listen to his note choices, his playing over chord changes, his intonation, him just being George Mraz. He was wonderful........
Click to expand...
Exactly. There’s no point in even thinking about it too much. Play the bass. Get into the music. The rest is out of your control. Even when you feel that your sound onstage cannot possibly be supporting the other players it’s likely that it is, FOH. So the trick is get out of your head and back to the music. I’ve actually gone back to the simplest possible set ups in any situation that presents itself instead of trying to manipulate everything around me to get a good stage sound. I don’t think all my attempts at eq etc really helped much and it took me further out of the music. Now I try to spread the sound around the stage through the monitors but as little as possible. That way I can sometimes still actually hear/feel a little bit of my acoustic sound. Enough to stay dialed in. If one finds themselves on a big stage with a big SVT just go with it, adjust, play the big notes, have fun with all that sustain. In short, stay in the music, not in your head about what the sound is out front.
 
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#58
rickwolff said:
Thank you @Don Kasper.

George sounds nothing less the FABULOUS on this. Those low notes rattle my molars. I freaking LOVE IT.

Every note is clear and clean, and what fabulous playing.

If I wanted to nit-pick it wouldn't be with the bass. To my ears, the piano is a little too strident sounding. Could be the instrument but is more likely just the choices the engineer made (mine would have been somewhat different).

I would love to have heard George Mraz live (but probably in a club with a great sound system and engineer).
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Right on. I was fortunate to hear Mraz live in NYC (Blue Note) maybe 10-15 years ago and the memory of his performance still wows me. He had perhaps the most relaxed yet strong technique I’d seen, fingers barely lifted off the string, perfect shifting. Phrasing, tone, note choice - musicianship of a master. Btw, I also am not a fan of that period of twangy recorded bass sound referenced by other posters. To paraphrase Dr. McCoy: It’s a bass Jim, not a cello.
 
#59
A few thoughts FWIW:

When I got to college in 1990 my bass teacher was Jeff Halsey. He had what was the gold standard amp set up of the time: a Walter Woods, two Bose Speakers, and an Underwood pick up. He had incredible chops and played loud. His bass growled so much that I hated sitting in on it because it felt completely out of my control. Jeff’s playing was 100% adapted to the aesthetic of the time. Don’t get me wrong, he could get his sound without the amp, but his playing was informed and fully adapted to how the bass was amplified back then. Incidentally, Tommy Flanagan loved Jeff’s playing and wanted him to go on the road but Jeff didn’t want to leave his teaching gig…

I hear George Mraz as the bassist possibly most adapted to, or even created by that sound. Rufus Reid, is another one. Listen to him on those last Live Stan Getz records. He’s cranked and playing soft, not just dealing with it, but fully adapted. Marc Johnson and NHOP too. They came of age with that technology. It wasn’t a compromise, it was cool AF! It’s much tougher for me to listen to and accept the sound of Older players in the 70’s and 80’s. Sam Jones or Ray Brown came up one way then had to adapt or “deal with it”. Ron Carter arguable made the biggest change out of all those guys.

I can’t really separate George Mraz and some of those other greats from that time/sound. It’s interesting to be here now when we talk about the (Fishman/Underwood) piezo as being objectively bad. It’s worth trying to sit down and listen to it as if it’s the absolute coolest thing, just to try to get some perspective.
 
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